Building Moats and Taking Risks: Secrets of Brand Success w/ Brett Swensen, VP of Marketing at Kizik

Trevor: 0:00

Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the unstoppable Marketer Podcast. We're so excited to introduce you to this episode, we have one of our good friends Brett Swenson, who is the VP of Marketing at one of the fastest growing DTC footwear brands out there right now. They're absolutely crushing it called kick. In this episode, we go so deep and talk about so many practical things that every marketer and founder need to know. We talk about what it takes to go from seven figures to eight figures. From eight figures, nine figures, we talk about the importance of building specific moats around your business to help you protect and scale, we talk about the power of risk taking, and what it takes for a business to go from point A to point B. When they do that. Please enjoy this episode and make sure to get the pen and paper because Brett takes us to school. Yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the unstoppable Marketer Podcast. It is a great day to day with me as always is Mark, but it's a great day. But it's a sad day. If you're watching this because Mark's hair is gone. I used to introduce Mark as my lovely coast with the best hair, I would oftentimes refer to him as someone with the best hair and he decided to show up with it cut.

Mark: 1:21

I caught it. Yeah, it's gone. Well, you look good. Still, that my nickname in high school is Goldilocks too. So the locks are gone. But it was time it was just when you wake up every day. And there's five moments every day where you go, I'm sick of it. Just having to cut it. So that's fair. That's fair. Yeah. And I'm getting old, you know? Yeah. Backwards. Mark is gone. Yeah. clean cut Marcus clean cut Marcus here. Yeah, yeah. Okay. It's a new day, new age.

Trevor: 1:49

I dig it. Well, we have an awesome guest today.

Mark: 1:51

Yes, we do. I'm excited.

Trevor: 1:52

Yeah, we're really excited. I want to introduce our guests. His name is Brett Swenson. He is the VP of Marketing for one of the fastest growing shoe lifestyle technology companies. Very good. I can say it another way to I mean, you could just say the fastest growing one of the fastest growing DTC footwear brands ever. Right now. out there. Yeah. Called kick. Did I say because again? Yeah. Kick, kick, kick. Welcome, Brett.

Brett: 2:23

How are you? Thanks for having me. Awesome. Glad to be here. How's your day been? It's good. I feel like every day we wake up and we're in a different like, it's raining today. It was sunny. It was 70 A few days ago. I mean, now. Here we are. Yeah. But things are good. I'm super

Trevor: 2:39

psyched. I'm coaching a baseball game at 430. Perfect for eight year old and they don't cancel those things. Ever. Why would you if there's lightning above you? They will cancel it. But nothing else. Like sideways snow and wind. Kids need to learn to tough it out. Yeah, it was machine pitch last week. It was it was pouring rain. And I was putting the ball in the machine and it would like, like to be on the ground. I'm like guys gonna cancel this. Every like four balls, it would actually work. Good. So I'm excited for that. Really excited. Cheers to that machine. Pitch. Not coach pitch machine pitch. Yes. Is machine pitch 40 miles an hour.

Brett: 3:19

Wow. Yeah.

Trevor: 3:20

How old are some eight? Cool. Yep. So yeah, it is awesome

Brett: 3:26

weather. Well, good luck to you. Thank you. That should be real fun. eight year olds in the rain.

Mark: 3:31

And speaking of stormy events, right over the weekend, we had a nice surprise on Facebook. Yes.

Brett: 3:39

Yes, yeah, I actually woke up Sunday morning. I was like, Oh, I'm gonna check Twitter. What's going on Paul Firestorm. So I sent a fire up a few slacks and like, Hey, guys, like anyone, like what are we doing here? Like we pausing like, what's going on? And anyway, we were sifting through it for a while in the morning, but luckily, we actually. I mean, it did blow through a bunch of our budget. We paused. But then we kind of thought, hey, this could be an opportunity for us to actually, you know, everyone else is turning stuff off. Let's turn let's go back on. Yeah. So we turned our campaigns back on and things normalized. But CPMs came in, they dropped. I'm sure you guys saw it came way down. And we only ended you know, maybe 10% above? Really? I spend so nice. You know if Matt is listening, we're waiting for our credits. Yeah, I

Trevor: 4:32

think we all are waiting for.

Mark: 4:34

Yeah, for those of you don't know, the meta ad platform and imploded on Sunday, they started over delivering ads. So impressions, or cost per impressions went through the roof along with every other cost metric.

Trevor: 4:45

Yes. So it wasn't there. And it was for pretty much everyone. That was a console. Yeah. I mean, in my Twitter scrolling, there were a few brands who were like, Oh, we didn't really see anything. But for the most part, it was

Mark: 4:58

everyone. Yeah, it was just me Across the board, oops. Oopsies somebody made a joke like Zuckerberg was off on earnings. So he's trying to get it all back in one day.

Brett: 5:08

What's the highest CPM? You saw?

Mark: 5:11

200? Really? Yeah. Okay.

Brett: 5:13

Like 130 is what we saw on our account, but

Trevor: 5:16

my goodness,

Mark: 5:18

I mean, that's the CPG space though, and they tend to be higher anyways.

Trevor: 5:21

Yeah, yeah, very much. So. So, okay, so Brett, I'm VP of Marketing at kissick. So, my story how I got to know you. We were actually at a founders event together. i Well, one, I'd seen you. I've seen you on LinkedIn. I've seen you online. I know who kissick is been following kissick for a while, actually, kissick, I was around. Mark and I were around at a company when kissick was introduced to us before it was kissick, like you have some shoes.

Mark: 5:53

Well, it was just a hands free lab.

Trevor: 5:55

Is that what it started out as?

Brett: 5:58

Well kissing has always been around our parent company, which kind of holds all of the technology and when we have over 130 patents in our portfolio, ease all around, you know, footwear and hands free and you name it some crazy stuff like locked away in a in a vault ball to Disney vault. Yes.

Mark: 6:16

A Big Cottonwood Canyon. Yeah,

Trevor: 6:18

Richie, Richie, Richie. Rich's vault zactly? No,

Brett: 6:21

no, but hands free Labs is the parent company that but it really kind of was born after physics. So it may have been kind of as we were starting, we had to, like find a home for all these patents and technology. So you know, one of the first things that we did is when when Blake and I came on early on was to get out like where's hands free labs gonna live and right next to kissick. And so anyway, yeah.

Trevor: 6:44

Yeah. Well, we got introduced to it by it was like, right when Alec I think Alex McArthur got brought on. And I met Monty and Alex at a conference. And they were talking about it. And I remember just thinking like, that's crazy. Yeah, like, that's pretty wild. Yeah. And, and to see where you guys I mean, that was probably

Mark: 7:04

five or six years ago. 18 and 2019.

Trevor: 7:07

I think we're in 2017 2018. Maybe

Brett: 7:11

I'm coming up on four years or three years. So yeah,

Trevor: 7:15

yeah. So it's amazing. I'm excited to talk about growth. But yeah, make sure to founders event. You're super awesome. We got I think we essentially just got paired up like I didn't come up and chat with you. You didn't come and chat with me. They were like, Hey, you too. No. Sit by each other. Yeah. And we chatted. And I must have been really charming. You were Yeah, it

Brett: 7:31

was it was I was really drawn to it was like a tractor beam. And yeah, it was. It was awesome to hear what you were building and, and Bill just kind of swap stories and talk shop little bit. Totally. I had seen you on LinkedIn too. And Senior Content was like, hey, yes, guy seems to have it together. Or sort of, yeah. Or pretending. Pretending really well. Yeah,

Trevor: 7:50

we can all pretend really good on social media really good at that. Yeah. So okay, let's talk. Let I say let's just get to your story a little bit. Like let's talk about little your journey. I'm excited because you've not only worked for you've worked for multiple nine figure brands now and been a part of nine figure startups kissick, one of them, purple being another one. So I'm excited to get into that journey. Let's just Let's quickly talk about who are you? What, how do you know what you know? Yeah. Where are you important?

Brett: 8:20

Yeah, you hear that? Question? I asked myself that every day. My kids are like, what do you do for work? Dad, you go to meetings and type on a keyboard and like, kind of

Trevor: 8:30

wear shoes all the time?

Brett: 8:33

No, actually, I didn't start in marketing. Actually. I was one of those that didn't love High School. And early like, you know, Junior Senior, you could ever work release. And I just wanted to go and like start working. And I worked with my brother for like 10 years and the photography space, like portrait photography, weddings. So I started out just, you know, it, he owned the business. And we grew it to be like the largest photographer in the state. There was one time I remember that especially, you know, specialized in weddings, but we were doing hundreds of weddings a year. And there was one Saturday that we had like, 15 weddings or something crazy. had, like, people were just flying to like, Okay, I'm gonna go, you know, shoot the ceremony. And then so and I was gonna do the reception and, you know, weddings here or there. It's intense. And so, yes, you know, I started just kind of, in the end, I worked, you know, from high school till, you know, my mid 20s doing photography, different variations and actually learn to, you know, shoot and, but I realized like, I didn't want to be a photographer. I did a lot of the backend work too. And like, the marketing quote, unquote, that was when like Facebook communities were starting to get big and we tried to innovate on that. And, you know, you're tagging all the brides and all their pictures and we'd make shareable opportunities to just build community and totally You know, kind of keep that flywheel going. And so I knew that I liked this, you know, solving problems and figuring out how we can continue to, to drum up business and market and, and but it wasn't like the digital side of it. And so anyway, fast forward and we actually we ended up starting a different photography business that was around school photography, like high volume school photography, and during that time I helped build and really came up with this concept for a CRM that would basically take, you know, once the picture is taken, like your, your kids school pictures taken, from the time it's taken to delivery and class picture and all that it was automated, and it was sequenced and kept track of and organized. And, and that was like, my first, you know, really get into it into building product and, and understanding like, how are we going to market this and they're selling to schools. And anyway, what it just taught me a lot about, you know, entrepreneurship, and I was living off of credit cards. And it was, it was a crazy time in life. But anyway, we, we sold that and I needed to go find something to do. And that's when I was looking on like, indeed, yeah, I think Ian was like, I really like marketing. And I like systems and CRMs. And like, what can I do with this? And so like, this mattress company is like, Hey, we're looking for like an email and marketing automation person. Yeah. I can do that. Yeah, like, I'm good at that. And right before that actually had spent some time at an agency. Yeah, doing enterprise account management. So I kind of had my foot in the door of digital marketing and, you know, was helping with SEO, and it was PPC, and, you know, just taking care of clients. But I knew that wasn't where I wanted to be either, but I knew I could do this. So I that's how I found purple. Yeah, is I saw this and I was like a mattress company. Yeah. Okay. So I go there, and I meet Alex McArthur, who you mentioned, and a couple other people and he ended up actually calling my boss at the agency like on the spot. He's like, Hey, I'm sitting here with Brett like, you're good dude. Like, would you hire him? And I was like, Oh my gosh, what's what's he gonna say? Like, yeah, shout out to Frank Baker, who was like, Oh, my gosh, she's, you know, yeah, gave me a really nice shout out. And and so, you know, if you know, Alex, he was just like, well, if it was up to me, I'd hire you. But you gotta convince this other guy. So if you don't get the job, blame him. I walked out. And I didn't hear from anyone for like, three weeks. Yeah. So anyway, they finally got back to me, and I start working purple. And that's when kind of things started in this, this, you know, EComm DTC space, and that I felt falling in love with is just product in really scaling brands from, you know, basically, you know, startup to write, you know, $2 billion brands, and hopefully another one with physics. So, that's kind of how I got into this world.

Mark: 12:49

Did you have any higher ed in between that or just work. So I

Brett: 12:53

actually went school for Exercise Science, and like, I wanted to be a personal trainer, at one point, I was like, This is gonna be awesome. No money in that there's no money there. So I actually just everything I learned was like, self taught, and just going through it and doing and then, you know, working at the agency and kind of just learning I mean, at the time, Facebook wasn't really that big. And some of these traditional channels that we know, today, we just weren't big back then. So I just kind of self taught and then, you know, I put in a ton of time, just like doing Sure, I just learned by doing and here we are, why do

Mark: 13:28

you think that some of the best marketers are self taught?

Brett: 13:32

I think that's a great question. I, I honestly just felt like there was no schooling out there. Like, because I actually did a couple of things, you know, just remotely, it was like, Hey, I'm going to, you know, see what I maybe missed. And do you know, a year or so or just kind of some marketing courses, and it's all very just checklist marketing. It's, it's the playbook. And I feel like, that probably worked for a long time. But when you're trying to be disruptive, or really build a category, I feel like, you know, there's, there's so much you can learn by doing and teaching and just figuring out versus reading in a textbook or, you know, stuff that that everyone else is learning. I just feel like, some of the success that I've seen is when you know, that old cliche when people are zigging, you zag and and she's like, that was a little bit of my career path of like, how to get into this and just figuring out by doing I think is probably the key takeaway there. But I don't know what it's good question. What do you guys think

Trevor: 14:31

about desk? Same thing? Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: 14:33

My hunch is that, you know, we live in such a dynamically changing environment in terms of like, culture and society, especially and everything has accelerated since social media started accelerating with cable TV and like broadcast media, right. But I just think that because tones and culture shifts so quickly. There's no way of like reading a book and then up approaching it and doing it right. It's like reading a book about skateboarding. And then thinking you can go out and skateboard like, you still have to actually go out and feel the gravitational pole, figure out your balance. So you're never gonna learn skateboarding without doing it. I actually think the same thing with marketing. Now you don't have any skills until you're in the mess. Because you don't know what works until you know what works. I mean, it's dumb as and simple as that sounds, right? You really, you have all these great ideas, and then you go out there and you're like, oh, nine out of 10 of those works. Right? So I need to fix my ideas. Yeah. But that's my thought. And because technology also is changing so quickly, you can't create a curriculum around it, you just have to do it. Yeah.

Trevor: 15:44

I don't disagree. Like I've actually thought about this a lot. Because I was the, like, I was the guy who I got my master's degree in marketing, like, so I went through the college, the full fledge experience, you know, and even was, like, very thoughtful. I remember thinking when I was getting my masters that I was gonna go get my PhD too. But for me, it was like, I kind of felt like, I had to do it. Like, like, in my head, it was like, if I want to be x, that like, you know, if I ever if I want z, I gotta go through X and Y first, you know, so like, I think sometimes, like, the reason why self taught marketers are the best, or, you know, just really self taught anybody usually, like, I think about that with musicians all the time totally is because they had such a will, like that, like, their goal was to like, to be as efficient as possible with figuring out how to do it. Whereas like, I wasn't really efficient with my time, right? Like, I thought I was being efficient. I'm going to school, I'm learning about the five P's of marketing, you know, I'm doing these things, right. I wouldn't did my thesis, all these things. And then like, I remember, like, one of the saddest moments of my entire life was like, ending my master's degree, and be like, Fuck, I still don't know what I'm doing. Like, that was, like one of the, like, hardest moments of my life. That just was like, crap, I've got to, like, I have to just like, go get a job somewhere and figure out how to do this, you know, so I think I'm getting I'm long winded with this. But I just think people who understand, like people who want something, tend to do whatever they can to get to it. And they'll self taught people, right. Like, I want to be a professional skateboarder. I'm not just gonna watch movies anymore. Like, I'm gonna buy a skateboard. I'm gonna buy the helmet. And I'm gonna, like, just go ride and get the reps in and get the reps in, you know, where there's some people who fall down, fall down. Yeah, we're like, I, to me, I actually, like, to me the schooling route, I think about I'm like, I actually did that because I was lazy. Like, I know, that's how everybody thinks. But like, when I think about it, like I was doing it, because I was lazy, because it felt like the right answer. And that was gonna be handed to you. Yeah. And it was like, Hey, do this assignment. Okay? Hey, do this test. Okay? Hey, study, like, this is what your course is now. Like it was, it was like laid out, go figure it out on your own. Yeah, that freaked the shit out of me, was to be able to have to, like, do it on my own. I was never a self taught guy up until probably four or five years ago, like I started self teaching.

Brett: 18:24

Well, and then you guys see the shifts, like, I remember, to your point, like you had a degree and like, you could get a job. And then like, I remember when, when I was interviewing, and kind of getting out of into the corporate world, it was like, show us show us how to do this, like, be a practitioner, not just a on merit alone, we're gonna give you this, like, we need to know that you understand this and actually do it. And when I was at the agency, you had to talk to people all day long, about, you know, little mini business plans for their, you know, in marketing plans for their business, and like, you had to show it, you couldn't just be like, well, here, you know, here's what I learned. But like, will show it walk me through Google Analytics and show me where I'm finding success or where there's, like, there's no way that that wasn't being taught anywhere. It wasn't, it was principles, but it wasn't really like the action. And that, to me, is one of the I think the greatest skills that I've been able to get as like being a practitioner while continue to grow my career. So like, how do you continue to stay in the weeds and, and do well, you know, managing people and, you know, becoming more of a leader in your company and organization, but still honing those skills is, has been something that's just been really important to me. I think that's how you continue to learn by doing I mean, what you guys are doing, I think is a good a good example of that super smart.

Mark: 19:42

And I think as you're self taught, you recognize that those skills can easily become outdated. Yeah, right. Because you self taught you have to creatively solve problems so often, it's dude, if I if I lose this, it's gone. Yeah, right. Then I'm gonna have to relearn everything. It's a lot easier just to get in the weeds a little bit. In your position so then I wanted to move into purple. So you you're creatively solving problems as an entrepreneur at an agency you get the job and at that point purple was kind of nothing right?

Brett: 20:15

They had done when I got there they were just finishing like the second Kickstarter. So they did their the first Kickstarter, which launched the mattress and kind of that product market fit was there and things were growing and I think I was like the, I don't know eight person on the marketing team or something like coming in to like, own a channel and grow. But yeah, they were still trying to figure things out. And it was maybe he had done 5 million or I don't know, something like that. So that you know, they were moving but it was early days where they were trying to keep up there was one machine making mattresses and it's like, okay, let's let's figure out what's next.

Trevor: 20:52

Can I call purple? And for those of you who don't know who purple is like, Purple was the pioneer right? In this like mattress game, like in in you're not going to RC Willey to buy a mattress like that's how you Well, I'd say

Mark: 21:09

and maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but they weren't the Pioneer. I believe there was a few before but what purple was the pioneer in was a different technology. And the DTC space because they came out with their patented. And you can describe it better than me, but it's that like grid gel system, but

Trevor: 21:26

they weren't the pioneer in the DTC space.

Brett: 21:29

No. So like Casper and like, there was a couple okay to kind of like, figured out this bed in the box. Got it. But yeah, to Mark's point, like we really came in and I think part of my career has been like disruptive brands, it was like how do we just we're selling this, you know, a bento box battle. We make it like, exciting and, and we and disrupted just kind of a legacy boring industry. And that's where I think purple came in with again, you know, with a moat around it. We had technology that was patented. That was wasn't memory foam. Yeah, traditional. Whatever. It was, like, you know, this grid system, they called it hyperelastic. Polymer. That's it. That's it fancy, but I still sleep on one today.

Mark: 22:16

Disclaimer, I also have a purple. Ah, it was the only thing that fixed my wife's shoulder problems.

Trevor: 22:23

You know, I actually remember when you bought your Purple Mattress. Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I do have a spellbinder. I do have a bed in the box. I just can't remember who it is. So very comfortable. I feel great on it. Yeah. Yeah. And they stay cool.

Mark: 22:40

Yes. Great. Yeah.

Brett: 22:41

I'm a big fan, even though I you know, I'd be honest, if I didn't use the product anymore. But, you know, you go in to a hotel or somewhere and I'm like, Man, I just, I miss my bed. Yeah, miss it. So

Trevor: 22:51

So what were some of the things that that purple did to go? You said you around there? Let's say it was between five and $10 million annually? What were some things that got them from this, like, seven figures into eight figures, and then eight figures into nine? Yeah, I think

Brett: 23:11

unwillingness to settle and be boring. And to really think outside the box, no pun intended. But like, you know, we, I just remember being there. And the energy that was was flowing there was there wasn't a bad idea. Like, what you know, shout out to Alex, you know, for fostering this, this culture. And, you know, we could come up with the craziest idea and take it until we finally just kind of had to maybe cut something out because it was too out there too. Too far. I don't know if you guys remember we did a we did something with Facebook with Tim and Eric. You know, it was a I don't know if you guys know those guys, but it was like this. No, no other brand, especially a mattress brand was doing something that was like this disruptive from a, like a culture standpoint, it was we did something that was like the most boring films ever made. Yeah, for one of these and it was just like, how could we think differently and, you know, put ourselves in the consideration set for someone when they are looking for a mattress and we did that through content? So you know, a lot of people have seen the Goldilocks video. It's kind of one of the claim to fame is that that kind of purple I'd say pioneered that style of marketing with you know, Harmon brothers you know, was was a big proponent of that, but like it was this idea that you could sell a mattress, you know, on the internet with a long form piece of content that we spent millions of dollars behind that just kind of kept purple top of mind. You're not looking for a mattress very often, but we found that if we could get people to you know, watch 30 seconds of that, we'd be in their consideration set. So when they're like man, I do need a new mattress, right? What's that company that the three bears and like go Goldilocks and they did the egg, the egg test and was like, oh, purple. And we're, you know, we saw organic traffic, and we're able to kind of tie it back to those initiatives. And so I think just our commitment to content and being unique, it really set us apart. I mean, we get people that was like, I don't care, I don't want to buy a mattress. I just love your content. Right. And that back then, which was been? What, yeah, seven, eight years was was very new to the space.

Trevor: 25:29

Right? Totally.

Mark: 25:31

Here's a question for you. What do you say to brands who

Trevor: 25:37

are too scared of?

Mark: 25:39

How should I say this? How would you respond to brands that hold on to their brand image so tightly that they're not willing to go out there with new ideas in content? Risk? Yeah.

Brett: 25:52

It's hard. In fact, we're at kissick, you know, we're, we're a very different stage, you know, from from kind of startup and where I feel like it is easier to take those risks, because you're not defined yet are you you're still kind of building your identity, and then people start to know you for something and it gets harder and harder. And I'd say, you know, so it depends on where maybe you are as a brand, but I don't, I don't think there's anything that, um, I think we get so caught up on our own brands, we feel like everyone's watching us all the time. And people, people don't care. Like, there's so many things going on that you can go take a swing, and, and try something new. And if it flops, no one's gonna like, remember. So I have to, like, remind us, like, we're so in it every day thinking like, Okay, we're going to launch this video, we're going to do this. And everyone's like, people have a lot going on. And I just think there's room to explore and create and weave your way through kind of a brand identity. Like at kissick, we've, we've shifted our focus three or four times on, kind of, you know, our messaging pillars and who we're targeting and who our persona is, and all of that stuff, I think is very valuable. And I think we get, you know, once you have your brand book, and whatever, like you're stuck forever, and you're really not, it's just a moment in time. And I think that just helps me to read Brian, you know, and I think it's just the culture you set, like be willing to take risks and take a swing, like all the brands we look up to are taking swings,

Trevor: 27:27

totally. So I'm grinning as you say this, because like Mark and I, Mark and I talk about this all the time, but we call it like that fear, marketing to marketers, like we get so caught up, that every other marketer is watching what we're doing as marketers, that they're going to be like, That's not their brand. That's not who they are. When in reality, like your marketing to consumer who is very, very rarely ever thinking about you. Like, the whole purpose of you marketing is just to get back in top of mind. And the whole purpose of a touchpoint and omni channel is to see if you can get that as much as humanly possible. Right. But like after somebody sees the Goldilocks ad or whatever out, like they're not really thinking about purple day in and day out. Right? It's just back to when it gets top of mind. You know, and

Brett: 28:15

I think to your to your question to Mark, I think there's steps that you gain permission to do more and more things from your, your audience and consumers to like, they'll you'll you'll know, that's one of the things at least I believe in is kind of permission based marketing is like, the more that you kind of gain the trust and gain and succeed and find new ways to maybe talk about your your product and brand. Like I think your consumers let you know, like when you maybe push the bounds or when you can do more. And I think if you have a good pulse on, on who your your core audience is, they'll kind of help you along the way to like, okay, maybe I'll go, I'll stay away from this, but I can really, you know, push here, at least that's what I've seen in things that that we've done is you can kind of get a sense of win wins and opportunity to try something new. Or to begin take a swing versus maybe playing it a little bit safer and continue to kind of learn a little bit more about who your consumers are. And

Mark: 29:15

because I what I do love about that example is that purple went out there and used humor and was one of the first companies to use that humor style long form video with Harmons brothers, right? How would you how would you help other brands see that humor can play a role in their brand without devaluing their brand? Because I think a lot of people get caught up with I don't know like we can't be funnier. People won't take a serious but you guys had this very serious NASA scientists curated material and mattress and use humor to shoot that thing to the moon.

Brett: 29:50

Yeah, I think there's a couple different ways you can go. I mean, to me, humor is the ultimate like, connection around just being a human like we all While we all want to feel like the brands that at least I look up to and really resonate with, like, there's, there's humans behind that. It's not just like, you know, you're speaking to this ethereal brand that is run by, I don't know, an AWS, you know, like the the brands that I feel like, I've been lucky enough to be a part of. It feels more humanistic. And there's a connection and, and I think people, you know, it's easy for a lot of brands to go, you know, highbrow and luxury and exclusive. And we always just with purple, Annette kissick, we've taken some of that playbook where we wanted to be really welcoming, and personable. And I think humor does a great job of that, because it, it's easy to kind of even make fun of yourself sometimes and, and it brings it kind of levels that you know, where you're not positioning the brand above anyone, and it kind of brings it on to a more humanistic level. And I think people really resonate with that. But yeah, I think we've we've been careful not to be too slapstick, or, too, whatever. Because, you know, especially with kids, it's we are a fashion brand. And if you're gonna put on your feet, you know, it's it's a fashion choice as well. And so there is an element of that that we're careful of, but it's worked really well for us both a purple and yeah, and what we've seen it kissick Do so

Trevor: 31:23

amazing. What are some of the, you know, I've heard this, I've heard this from a lot of people who get to a certain revenue revenue threshold where they start to think about top of funnel contents more, right? Most brands who are kind of in this seven, eight figure business and even below that they're thinking very much of what I spend $1. How do I make sure that that dollar makes me X amount of dollars? Like that's very much how mindsets are what? What's the leap that you've had to take both like a purple and as a kissick to say, we're going to invest a very large sum of money, that we have no idea that it's gonna give us a return, like, walk us through that process, like on how you get to that to decide like, we're going to do it.

Brett: 32:14

Yeah. That that has been a it's a great question, because I've had several conversations with our CEO who who is a lawyer by trade Crimean and he's, he is awesome. Mati deer is one of the greatest people that I've ever worked with and for, but he didn't have any concept of like, you know, he's, he's learning on the fly kind of marketing and DTC and right, ask great questions, but like, having to explain to them that we're going to invest, you know, six figures in, in a piece of content that, you know, is that the top of the funnel of whatever funnel you could draw at the very top of that, you know, is, is a challenge. And I think, again, we have some hindsight, you know, one thing that's been nice to be able to look back at experiences and be like, Oh, this feels like a purple moment, like, yeah, this scale or this moment, like, I remember how this felt. So that's been really nice to have that in our back pocket. But yeah, I mean, it is, it is a it is a leap of faith. I know every year come August, September, when we're investing heavy and top of funnel like, yeah, building our audiences. I'm like, oh, man, is this the year? It's gonna like, not work? Yeah. Like, are we not gonna see this back in November and right, you know, and it, but I think we've, again, going back like people aren't on the internet. They're not, I mean, in my world special where we're DTC, they're, they're not searching, they're not going on, and I can't wait to see an ad today. Or, you know, and so we really wanted to, we just believe heavily in it's the backbone of, of, I think, our marketing philosophy that if we can create engaging, content that also educates and is, you know, for us demonstrable, you know, it kind of checks off these, these things that we've we found that make a great piece of content, especially for top of funnel like, it's going to work. Like it may be not as effective as something we did over here, but like, sure, there hasn't been one time yet that we've, I think I've been a part of seven, eight of these, like, what you'd call high production value, yes, upon it. And every time you know, if you follow kind of a formula that we've kind of just kind of learned over time, like how to what needs to be in there and what you have room for. It's worked, but I don't know the original question was like, How do you like how do you how do you get

Trevor: 34:38

to that? How do you get to that point to decide like we got to do this,

Brett: 34:41

I think and I don't think every product maybe is is or brand is maybe a fit for this but we speaking of Cusick now, it's such a demonstrable product. We found that we had to show people we had it we couldn't just tell someone like hey, imagine not having to bend down and put on your shoes you just step in and go right. Like, Oh, sounds cool. Like, I already do that with my

Mark: 35:05

butt. Does that a crock? Is that Yeah, sandals handle?

Brett: 35:08

Yeah, like, yeah. But like if we could convey this and show it, there's what we call the aha moment that people got. And so it was like video was a no brainer for us. And if we could wrap that in a story that really helped, again, educate but kept people entertained. So we could get keep people all the way through to a minute, half, two minutes on a four minute video. We were we were golden. We just the metrics played out that we were building this massive audience and then we could then we could come back with your UGC and your mid funnel content to really drive people further down. And then, you know, it's in his right, but

Mark: 35:45

yeah, yeah, I think you have a unique perspective on this because the consideration cycle for a Purple Mattress, I mean, you're talking about$1,000 purchase, right? Yeah. What how long did it take people from seeing and hearing about you to buying I'm imagining six months on average, if not longer, we heard

Brett: 36:07

back in the day when there was less, you know, on the privacy side, it was like 28 touch points or something over like 90 days, something like that. But it was like, yeah, it was a long time. And so, you know, that's part of the reason why we went there. I was like, how do we that sticky moment? How can we be sticky in someone's mind? Because again,

Mark: 36:27

because nobody's just like, oh, I need a mattress today. I'm gonna go buy one, right? No, I

Brett: 36:31

mean, yeah, but being part of that consideration set was was all we were going for with with some of those pieces of content, just I mean, we we intentionally, you know, we worked in moments of nostalgia, and, you know, so we reference like Nickelback a few times. And like, there was these things that like, all those connections that really, you know, really had ad recall. And, like, oh, yeah, what was that brand? Oh, yeah, we were top of mind. Yeah. And

Trevor: 36:58

what a wildly important metric to understand his brand, which is like, your customer timeframe, right? Like the journey of that lifecycle for that reason alone, right? Like, because if you don't understand that, you've got this not 28 touch points, in 90 days, in order for you to get a sale, you could run a top of funnel ad that you paid millions of dollars for and deem it as a failure. If you don't understand that, like, Oh, crap. When when reality is like, oh, no, we're just not maximizing our three ROI after a week. We're not maximizing that time enough. Yeah. You know,

Brett: 37:34

yeah. Yeah. I mean, in, you know, we use, you know, some different attribution tools. And if you look at our YouTube campaigns, right now, they're like a point 3.4. But we know that if they're, if they're like a point, five and above, we know that that'll, that'll come out over, you know, over the next 30 days to be ROI positive for us. And so, to your point, that mix with, you know, asking, you know, post purchase, like WinZip, you know, how long when did you first hear about us? And then, you know, tying that back and be like, Man, on YouTube, they're telling us two months, right, first time they heard about us, like, okay, that's really helped us scale. And, and, again, continue to have that gumption as well to to keep doing what we're doing. Because we know it's working. It's just again, not, not everyone's in market all the time for even shoes, which Sure, yeah, people buy five, six times a year, right? Being in consideration, so they're ready. And so that's been super helpful for us.

Mark: 38:36

That's true marketers mentality, honestly. Right, because I think we all get caught up in the easy quick wins. And and to go back to your original question, I think what happens is a lot of early DTC companies start pushing against that boundary of easy wins. And they don't know what to do, right? Because they're too scared of not looking at their Facebook or looking at their Facebook and not seeing a certain quote, ROI or row as and

Trevor: 39:01

we've been so used to saying, Hey, this is what we're doing. This is what we're doing. This is who we're, yeah, these

Mark: 39:08

are the people in the market. But once you start pushing against that total obtainable market, like you you've had to do twice in your career. It's that scary leap of faith moment. And I think a lot of people go, I don't know. Yeah, but you've shown twice how well that can work over the long run and understanding what the metrics need to be because, like you just said, how many marketers might know, I know, on a top of funnel content piece, if I'm getting an X ROI in platform, it's going to pay out over six months for me. It'll be a 234 for me over very little. Very few. Yeah. And they're too scared to even look at a platform and see that low

Trevor: 39:44

or no Oh, yeah. And know how to, like, how do you measure that? Right? Like, how do I know if it's point five? Is it going to play out?

Mark: 39:51

Ya know, over six months? Yeah, yeah.

Trevor: 39:55

I kinda want to pivot change a little bit. You guys are right, if I kind of, you know, a couple of things. If you do the sound effect each time, yeah, okay. So you know, one thing that we've talked about is like moats that you've built around your business. One is content, like we've talked pretty heavily about that so far. But one thing you brought up before, kind of as you were introducing yourself as a moat was technology. Like we haven't talked a lot about that piece. But you've you've come from now two brands that had such a heavy focus in technology. Talk to us about the moat that that's created. I know, we've talked a lot about purple, maybe we can do maybe we can kind of switch gears and talk more about kissick. But I want to talk technology and how that can be this growth element and this protective element to a business.

Brett: 40:41

Yeah, I mean, and I think it starts there, quite frankly. I mean, one of the reasons why I wanted to join kissick was exactly that reason. I mean, as a marketer, having something that's defensible, and having something that, you know, again, especially where we're at over 100 patents, and it's mind blowing to see the the, the detail and the innovation that that's gone into this concept of hands free shoes, I mean, it, it really does allow you and I would regret if I didn't say like, that's part of some of the reasons why I think we're able to take some of these risks, and it's probably easier for us to be to be a little bit more, yeah, risk taking than maybe some others where they're in the CPG space, or, you know, razor thin margins, or, you know, I think that that's something that I intentionally sought out though, after being at purple and, and being other places where like, man, just, you're a, you know, a t shirt brand or whatever, and you're just fighting against, you know, 1000s of, of other brands that you're all just trying to win on brand alone or something that you're repackaging you know, it, it makes it easier as a marketer to, to really tell a story and to build a brand around, she have one kind of driving force. And for us, that's this hands free movement that, you know, we're we're on the forefront of we're we're planting our flag in the ground saying we are the leaders in the next evolution of footwear. Sure, come along for the ride. Yeah. And that's, that's something really exciting to be a part of from just like a, an everyday to get up and go to work type of thing. Like, that's really fun. How are we going to tell that story today? How are we going to set ourselves apart from other brands that are, you know, whether it's sustainability, or it's, Hey, we did this crazy new colorway or whatever it is like, No, we're thinking beyond that. Like, we're thinking like, this is the way that she should have always been? Yeah. And let us show you why. That opens up a playbook that not a lot of brands, I think, have the ability to do

Mark: 42:52

so. But that also has a challenge to it, right? You have such a technical advantage that maybe as a marketer, you want to focus on features. And I think a lot of brands do that when they do have a, quote, technical advantage. So how do you balance features and benefits and connecting to people emotionally? Yeah,

Brett: 43:09

such a good point, I think, again, going back to our conversation around different stages of the business, we've, we're now at a stage of the business, we're really trying to think, you know, a little bit more aspirational? How do we connect to, you know, higher level benefits? And how do we create a brand that's sustainable? And that actually stands for something beyond functionality or problem solution. And so that's, I think, where we're, you know, we've, we've gone through several iterations of our brand and refreshed it and targeted different people. And when we started out, we were 65 Plus male dominated brand heavy leather shoes. Like, it was aging America that was like, oh, I need though I can't bend over and tie my shoes I need I need those shoes. And like, Great, we'll take those take that consumer all day, but then it was like, we really want to make this a billion dollar brand, multibillion dollar brand. We got to think broader than that. And how do we talk to a community that's much broader than just that I need this to? I want this, I want this to be part of, you know, this is an expression of who I am sure. And so we're, you know, it's taking time, you know, this is my, what, most fourth year kick in. We're still figuring that out, like, what's the next step for growth? What's the next growth audience for us? And we're growing through a lot of work right now to balance that where there's still a functional, like, demonstrable, especially on our growth channels like Facebook and Google, like, we have to show it, but it's like, how does that make you feel like what is this doing for you and your life? What are we unlocking for you? And that's what we're starting to rally around and tell a slightly different story now. So we can build a brand that people you know, our founder says like If they want to wear on their chest, like how do you build that type of brand and it's not easy, because it you know, a lot of people default to like the same aspirational, you know, qualities and a brand and we're looking to, you know what, what is what is kissick really allow you to go and do by it may be putting on your shoes and saving time or it's easier. It's more convenient. But like, what does that? How does it make you feel? And anyway, we're building that drive right now. So it's a very top of mind question for us, because we've been, I think, really heavy just trying to scale and grow and, and now do so profitably. Now, it's like, how do we, how do we build this community and brand that it's, you know, can kind of stand stand the test of time. And so

Trevor: 45:45

it's amazing for every moat that you build, right? There's also like, a potential problem that like, can that moat faces, right? So you know, one moat that you guys had built really early on in kissick is the tech it is the features, right? And it's very easy, like, hey, you know, you don't have to bend over or you don't have to, like there's, there's a benefit to that feature, right hands free technology. So you can, you know, not bend over as much or whatever it is, right? Like so it's, it's it's very much tied to this feature benefit that has protected and and allowed you guys to really targeted on some, like amazing audiences. But now it's like, hey, if we continue down that road alone, can we be a billion dollar brand? And the answer might be no, right? You might have to kind of like, that's why it's like, Okay, now we're, what I'm hearing you say is, now we have to focus on like, the bigger meaning behind what that brand is like, yes, technology focus, but now like, what is the why? And how do we get that total addressable market to really be interested in

Brett: 46:50

competition crops up, right, you're doing something really well, people started jumping in totally. And that's where we really are separating ourselves as well as, like, others will claim to do hands free, or whatever their version is, right? Like, you know, again, setting ourselves like no, we're the Oh, geez, were the pioneers were actually, you guys can play on here. We're thinking what's next, right? So there is there's always gonna be a tech component to that, which I think if you look like a Tesla, like they kind of have that always kind of pushing the bounds, which is, which is cool, but with footwear and, and lifestyle and fashion. Like, we have to tie that more to like, you know, more more aspirational and feeling and, like people throughout their day and how to, you know, our, our best customer is kind of that, you know, 30 to 45 year old woman who's, you know, looking for fashionable, you know, cute shoes, but is probably busy. Sure, probably has kids. It's odd. She's on the go. But like, yeah, she's making choices every day that aren't just how do I get into my shoes these years, she's like, I want to look good for my husband, for my girlfriends for where I go out. Like there's all these other considerations that we now are trying to be the brand for, yeah, her and her spouse and those that are surrounding but like, those, those kinds of decisions aren't made on function alone. It there's a fashion element, there's a fashion meet function. So it's a it's a unique opportunity that it's been really challenging. And in because the easy thing to do is just once just problem solution problem solution. How many different scenarios? Can we show? Someone you know? Yeah, putting on a shoe, but it's like, we know we want it we have bigger aspirations totally.

Mark: 48:33

What's even funny? I mean, if you even just look at demographics, who are the most functionally based buyers? old dudes, right? Like, that's the whole joke. The New Balance joke, right? Yeah, they're just looking for function. So of course, at the beginning, that was your primary demographic, but I think that shows as your demographic has shifted, you guys have been able to weave in the story up until this point, and then it's just continuing like you said, iterating on that story, because not many brands go from that demographic old dudes. No to 30 to 40 year old women. That's a hard jump for a lot of brands to take. So I think that's credit for

Trevor: 49:12

death sentence jump for Yeah, for a lot of people. Yeah, like, which is amazing.

Brett: 49:17

So scary. So credit for you scary? Yeah. Well, you guys

Mark: 49:20

were able to weave that story in and, and I always think that our personalities and who we are is just the summation of the stories we tell ourselves. And so for brands to become like a part of somebody's identity, it's hard to how do you inject yourself in that storyline for someone that they're telling themselves every day, right, so yet, doing that for a 65 year old guy and a 30 year old woman is very different? Yeah, so doing that amazing. More like, super props for you guys that kissick And then you know, moving into you as a as a marketer and as a person, like looking out there at other marketers and people I'd love to know, from your perspective, what, what do you see out there? Like since iOS 14, since you know, everything that's happened in the last few years COVID We've had a lot of big events in the marketing world AI. AI. What do you think people are doing wrong right now? Like, if you could just look out there on Twitter? Are you like, oh, man, like, you guys are gonna make a huge fatal mistake right now.

Trevor: 50:25

Yeah, I like that common mistakes marketers are making.

Brett: 50:30

I mean, I think one. I see a lot of marketers chasing shiny objects a lot. Like, again, AI is kind of that shiny object right now, which I'm not saying we should ignore it. But I think one thing that we really focused on early on was doing one or two things really, really well. Before, you know, you're tempted to go and kind of, you know, go to your checklist of like, oh, man, we got to do, you know, SEO, and we got to do influencer, or we need to do what, who's handling our affiliate program? And like, there's so many things to do. And I remember coming in, you know, to kisah can be like, there's nothing set up, nothing was set up. Yeah. And I was like, Okay, well, let's start with the highest impact things first, and let's be awesome with those. And I think that's just one thing that that I see a lot of people are like they're chasing, like they're trying to, they're trying to solve and fix something that they think a new tool or something will fix. And it's like, maybe your product just needs like, you need to really listen and go talk to your customers and figure out what they really want, and not go and find a new tool. And so I just I know a lot of people were like, I see, they're like, they're asking for the next. Hey, where can I go and find a tool that does this or that? And, and I don't know, that's just one thing that I've seen that I get asked a lot. And it's like, what your tax tax was like, yeah. And like, give it tell me about your business first, and like, what you're actually like, tell me about who's buying your product? And why and like, do you really understand them? And and I just think that once you know that, then it's it's easy to plug in the right tools at the right time. Yeah. It's so easy to get overwhelmed. And then you've spent all of your marketing budget on like, the latest and greatest influencer software, that's two grand a month, and you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm locked in for a year or two years and and isn't even working. It's just so I know that that's one thing I see off the top my head, but I answer Great question.

Trevor: 52:32

One thing that I'm like, I kind of almost pulled another thing out of what you were just saying there, which is, you've you've inadvertedly mentioned this a handful of times in this podcast, like you've talked a lot about talking to your customers, and like, we've known you for a bit now. And that's been like, we talked to DDC people all the time. And like that is not a common thing that a lot of DTC owners and marketers and founders are thinking about very often is like, hey, let's just ask our customer, hey, let's just let's talk to them. But like, that seems like it's been a core piece of physics business for quite some time now. Because like, how do you know, you know, like, like, you just keep saying, like, you know, people are like, Hey, what's your tech stack? Or what your tech stack? But you're like, but do you know, XYZ about your customer first, before you even jump into that? Yeah, well, how has that been? Like, why is that been so important to you guys? So it always been that way? Um,

Brett: 53:32

I don't know that it always has, I think, you know, as I mentioned, we shifted, we've pivoted, two to three times, you know, early on, there were like big pivots. We call our like, we had a product pivot from like, 1.0 to 2.0. And like, like, it's really easy to guess it what we think we should make, or especially in the footwear, industry, styles changes really quickly. And, you know, again, lucky for us, we have a technology that allows us to, to win. And it's not just style alone, or a culture that we've had to build, you know, a lot of drop culture or whatever, like we have an actual functional benefit. That's, that's been great. But like, being able to ask and understand like, one where, where is the fashion space going? So trying to uncover insights there to then help our product team make the right products and making shoes takes forever? Sure. It's challenging to hit timing, but like, also understand, like, where are people wearing our shoes? And why and how many times a week are they wearing them in? Like what is really resonating, just that feedback loop is, is critical when you're moving really fast. Because I think if you're moving fast, you can go down a wrong road by a couple degrees, and then you're way off. So it's kind of a gut check moment to have later you know, again, going back to Creative as well like being able to actually see how your creative is doing and resonating in real time. Most is is kind of a game changer. So then it's, you're kind of de risking some of that a little bit like, yeah, you could test and learn and then iterate on it quickly versus being like, Alright, all our eggs in one basket, let's go. You know, so I think continuing, you know, and there's, there's tools out there, you know, shout out to bestie. I mean, there's tools out there that, make that collection and in and present it. So you can, as a marketer, that's your job is to like use your intuition and skillset to then use that insight to make a change. And I think that's one thing I've had to learn in my career is like, you know, pivoting is, is just, it's part of the journey, like, going back to your conversation around brand, you're not locked in forever, go pivot, go change, go tweak. No one's gonna, you know, you're not married to that or iterate on product. Find where those gaps are, or where maybe where you're not addressing, we found out that pregnancy. I know, it seems like a no brainer. But we learned through just kind of talking and learning and like finding communities and conversations online. That pregnancy was like popping off for physic. It makes sense, right? Six months, seven months, you're bending over bending over and like, I don't know, at the time, but we weren't working. We weren't making creative for it. Yeah, we just found this community of women that were like physics or saving my life right now. And we're like, Yeah, okay. There's our next target. Yeah. 30, New Zealand's of creative and found some UGC creators and like, went all in. And that was a huge unlock, you know, one of our, our services business and like, you don't learn that by not kind of putting your ear to the ground, in whatever way that you can, you can get insights. And there's so many

Trevor: 56:47

cool insight,

Mark: 56:48

what you're really saying is, in some ways, to me is, there's a dirty side of marketing, and you have to get in the weeds. You've mentioned that before of understanding customers, understanding your product, understanding your company. And so many companies try to jump that step into saying, Hey, I hit one thing. Great. Now, let's jump into five different marketing channels and five different tech stack tools. And I'm gonna start replicating what a billion dollar brand does when you're saying, no, no, no, no, if you want to go from seven, eight to nine, you got to keep things simple. And you got to do things exceptionally well. And then you can start adding that incrementality of maybe a different marketing channel, or maybe a different kind of technology that you can include in your stack. But you don't go from zero to 10 and expect to win, you'll just end bloating. Yeah, right. No. And that's such a valuable lesson for early stage DTC companies. And we see that mistake all the time. And we've made that mistake in our careers, like, oh, this influencer thing is going to kill it for us. And then we signed up and it didn't do anything. Yeah. Or, oh, this review platform is going to increase or this customer loyalty program, you know, just name them all. I'm not saying those things are all bad things, but they're not the silver bullets that are going to fix something that's failing in the core of your business or marketing. Yeah, and some

Trevor: 58:07

of those things will work better. The further down the road, you get Yeah, right. Like when when you've got a team the size of kids IQ and the revenue, the size of kids IQ. You've got more time and attention to put into maybe some of those other things versus if you are a seven figure brand. You know, it's like hey, what, like, what are those two channels, you know, and focus there. And then when you get to the next level, then bring in number three, you know,

Brett: 58:32

meat and potatoes. Boring, bub.

Trevor: 58:36

Mean potatoes, pick and roll. What else? What else? We got? The Sony and safety squeeze?

Mark: 58:45

Well, man, we've we've loved our time chatting. It has been great. Speaking of pregnant women, I have a very pregnant wife and so I'm probably gonna have to get out of here soon.

Trevor: 58:55

Yeah, Mark is Mark spot to have his third baby. Third baby, which is exciting.

Mark: 59:00

It is exciting and daunting. Boy, right? We don't know. That's right. Yeah, we don't know. I forgot about that. My wife likes to do the hospital surprise. So we'll find out. We got two boys already.

Trevor: 59:15

I am so excited. I was awesome.

Mark: 59:16

I forgot if you use gamblers fallacy in your life, you'll probably assume that it'll be a girl this time, right? But

Trevor: 59:23

I don't know what else. Amazing.

Mark: 59:25

It's a coin flip every time. We'll see what happens.

Trevor: 59:28

Well, Brett, thanks so much for coming on. Dude, this is awesome. I've, I've been watched. We both been watching the journey of kissick for like I said for a while now, you know. And so it's been amazing to see. We're excited to see where you take things and we love like I love that you've dove so much into taking risks and you know, but also taking risks but also simplifying things at the same time. You know, it's been a really cool we've seen like, two sides of the spectrum, which has been really, really cool. So but taking risks is as simple as Sure, yeah. Yeah, very much so you don't have to overcomplicate it and this is part of the game plan. Love it. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in. Brett. Where can people follow you? Find you? Yeah.

Brett: 1:00:14

Really. I'm just Brett Swenson pretty much on all social platforms. So yeah, I'm, I'm a lurker on Twitter. more active on LinkedIn. So yeah. Come chat. Kids. iq.com rise. iq.com. Yeah. K as the IQs. Yep. Kz AK calm.

Trevor: 1:00:30

They're awesome. I own a pair. Legitimately. So I will soon Brett didn't get me wrong either. I bought them with my own money. I try actually offered it. I said, I'm buying these. Which is the true. That's a true fan. That's the true hormigas Yeah. And my wife really wants a pair. So I actually know. Alright, everybody, thank you so much, and we will see you next Tuesday. Thank you so much for listening to the unstoppable Marketer Podcast. Please go rate and subscribe the podcast whether it's good or bad. We want to hear from you. Because we always want to make this podcast better. If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback. Please go follow me and get in touch with me. I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and tick tock thank you and we will see you next week.