Ditch The "Playbooks" and Start Solving Problems Creatively | Special Guest KC Holiday former CEO of QALO

Trevor: 0:00

Yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the unstoppable Marketer Podcast with me as always is my co host Mark goldheart Mark goldheart What's up, dude?

Mark: 0:11

Oh, I'm doing great. It's been an eventful past week for me to say the least. But yeah, great. Yeah Fourth of July we were out of town, a semi truck clipped our car with my wife in it.

Trevor: 0:24

That's right.

Mark: 0:26

It wasn't bad. Like I mean, everything's fine. It's not like a real accent. It was just she was in a parking lot truck made a turn that was a little too sharp and the back end like the very back end corner clipped our car of the trailer.

Trevor: 0:39

I don't know how that doesn't happen more often. Like I am put in that situation all the time where like I'm in the left hand turning lane. And then the person who's on like, my right side that is semis turning left into that lane going against me. And I don't know how that has never happened to me.

Mark: 0:58

They're professionals. That's how I guess so I get my my wife started doing ice baths so that's interesting.

Trevor: 1:06

She's become an ice bath influencer now,

Mark: 1:09

I guess. So Amanda did her first time and guess how long she went for?

Trevor: 1:15

Three minutes.

Mark: 1:16

Not 15 minutes. What 15 minutes dude, I'm not I was there. Like she was in there for 15 minutes.

Trevor: 1:24

Is it? I don't think it's healthy for women to do it that long.

Mark: 1:28

I mean, they say you can I looked it up that well, there you go. I mean, I don't know. I'm sure there's some kind of ice bath influencer out there listening. So let us know. Is that too much? That too long?

Trevor: 1:41

As Yeah, that's a good question. Well, listen, dude, I'm excited for today's episode. We have an awesome guest, who's with us for who's just been so patiently listening to us banter back and forth. But we've got a guest here today. His name is Casey Holliday. Casey is the current CEO and founder of Casey holiday coaching former co founder of kalo. For those of you who don't know what Kayla was they were the pioneers of the silicone ring. So if you were a silicone ring, if you've seen them on Amazon now, they were the ones who really kind of started that. So Casey, what's going on? Dude, we're happy to have you

KC: 2:22

guys. It's an honor to be here. I appreciate the kind intro and Mark hearing about your wife, man. Like she seems so brave. She's in that accident. She's doing okay. And she's also ice bath thing for 15 minutes like my goodness, the woman's a warrior.

Mark: 2:38

She really is. I don't know if it's because an ice bath is nothing compared to giving birth eight weeks ago, or

KC: 2:44

weeks ago for her ice bath was like that was probably recovery. That was just a night I guess.

Mark: 2:52

So like I'll just, I'll just get in here. And she's a redhead. So I think redheads have higher pipe pain tolerance. I think that's actually a scientific truth. No, it's

Trevor: 3:00

not is it really?

Mark: 3:03

I'm pretty sure it is. I mean, I'll look it up but I'm pretty sure it is because they don't anesthetic doesn't work on them the same way it works on everybody else. What? Yeah,

KC: 3:12

gingers are a rare unappreciated breed I have I have my two year old ginger and he's just there's he's very he's just tough as nails he's built different he's just a why he's a wallet yeah not to be tamed yep,

Trevor: 3:26

that's the I've never heard that at all and I need somebody to confirm this. Yeah, if that is legitimate or not I

Mark: 3:35

looked it up according to the National Institute of Health Studies suggest that their general pain tolerance may be higher.

Trevor: 3:42

Why in the world All right. Well, there you go. Okay. Well, listen, gentlemen, before I get started I actually want to bring up a topic here Are either of you guys on threads yet?

Mark: 3:58

Too tired.

KC: 4:00

I I had like a I had a moment when I heard it get announced. I was just like, we don't need another one. We don't need another one. Like I don't need another. Like, I don't need more hours of my day thought about which platform should I be distributing on and where should I be creating content and how do I now repurpose it to this other platform? Like it's become such utter chaos? That yeah, I don't know. I so I'm on it. I'm on it because I'm just a glutton for punishment I guess. Or I just sort of follow the crowd like a bee to the beehive but I don't know man. What do you get? What do you guys think? Are you all in Are you just toe in the water?

Trevor: 4:36

So here's my thoughts. So I had the same thought as you right when threads you know they were talking about it for a bit but when it when it came about like when it was a yesterday or that the night before yesterday, whatever, when you actually could sign in and create an account. I thought the same thing. It's like dude, I can't. I can't do one more thing I post every day on Tik Tok I post every day on Instagram. I post mostly every day on LinkedIn. doing stories. I've been trying to figure it out Twitter for the last like three months in a very haphazard way. Yep. And it's like, that's just that's just insane for me to do. But I saw this, like, I saw somebody post something that said, Hey, hurry and get on the reserve, make sure nobody takes your, your, your name your handle. And so I was like, Okay, well, I'll hurry and do it. And I did it yesterday, and I have over 2000 followers now. Like, my follower count, skyrocketed. And so I just yesterday, I just fell into the trap. And I posted probably 15 times yesterday, this morning, I posted five or six times. And I am I don't know if I'm addicted because I had the follower account and the engagement really, really quickly. I also am slightly happy about it, because I always felt this, like I just feel stupid. When I'm on Twitter. There are so many super, super smart people in the DTC space. And I'm not saying that I'm not smart. But I'm not like super, super technical, like a lot of these people and so like, thread seems less.

KC: 6:17

Hey, Trevor, by the way, don't fall for that trap. Don't fall. Come on. Like they're not they're not as smart as they would like to lead you to believe. And the reason is,

Trevor: 6:28

I and I know that I know that right? But you don't at the same time, you know, you get like a little imposter syndrome. Oh, and

KC: 6:36

I felt that for a long time with Twitter. That was the big aversion for me. It was like, it just feels like everybody trying to tell everyone how smart they are. And talking just enough over people's heads where they get some of it. But you they still look at you and go God person so smart. Like that person. Yeah. And it's like, you know what, like, don't come on. Not everybody's that smart. Everybody puts their pants on the same way. Like come on. Like, it's, you know, it's like there are really bright people out there. But when you like when you can pre write something 30 days in advance to and reword it to make it seem very different and very smart. Like, absolutely, there are brilliant people. But I think that's part of the Twitter, especially in the DTC world strategy of, hey, I'm going to talk real and sound really smart and show all these images of, you know, revenue, and all these different metrics and things like that, that, you know, are gonna make you feel a little bit worse about yourself, but just just enough, not that you'll want to work with me and hire me like, that's very much the game.

Trevor: 7:36

So true. So yeah, for those listening, that's

Mark: 7:39

actually it's excellent point. It is very true. People talk in absolutes. Yeah. And if you're actually in the game, I mean, look, and I get it, it's content strategy. I'm not calling anyone out. Don't take this personal, anybody, but people talk in absolutes. And they act like this is the only way this is like the golden path. But if you're actually in business, you understand that everything is just so variable. And it just depends on the context. Everything is contextual. It depends on your business, your model, your goals, everything just depends. So it's easy to go on there and throw out an absolute, but it's just it doesn't apply to every situation.

Trevor: 8:15

Yeah. And it's it is a great content strategy, it's a really good way to get engagement, it's a really good way to get followers. That's exactly that's exactly why Donald Trump has the following he has right is because he speaks in absolutes. And he's very, very polarizing. And, you know, and so you just like you love them, or you hate them. And, and it's a it's, it's done wonders for the man. Right. From an attention perspective,

KC: 8:41

I'd say across the board. I mean, the, the the marketing campaign, he ran to become President of the United States, right? It's like, it's, it's exactly that model. And it was exactly formulated to do exactly what people that are successful on social media do, which is live your life in a complete state of absolutes, and then do everything you can to back it up, even if you don't believe it internally, yourself. And nobody that's built social, I would say there's probably very few people that have built a social following going, Hey, here's sort of what I think. But there's some context and other sides make a lot of sense to and this is dialogue, you're gonna know like, and I think in Twitter, everything in social media is engagement. Like I saw this one tick tock, this guy said, we're in every video, he'll say something wrong, just to get people to comment to tell him that it's wrong to create engagement, right? So he'll just be like, Look, man, and we know it, guys. It's easy. Six plus six equals 10. And so you know, if I've got a dozen and people wait, no, no, dude. Well, you just added that wrong. And so everybody will run to the comments to tell him how dumb he is. And he's like, Oh, that drives engagement. So it gets more views and generate more popular, man this is it's this whole game behind the scenes, but you're right on Twitter, the game is very much here's an absolute and then it just gets people stirred up on whether or not they believe it, but to your point. What I think it does a lot is it actually makes people rethink what they do. Believe. And I think in some ways in life, that's a good thing. But for the most part, it makes it make drives people's confidence way down, I think. And that's like, whatever. That's not necessarily like the people's reaction to things is not altered the person posting, but I think that's what it does. It makes me go Well, surely, I didn't believe that before. And they're stating it was such confidence in AI, this person's got a big following. And so what I believe to be true must be wrong. And then it kind of sends you down this whole rabbit hole. Anyway, didn't mean Yeah, so

Trevor: 10:27

I think going back to threads, right? No, I think you're spot on. And I'm glad it went this way. But going back to threads, I think that that's, you don't see that quite yet. And so like when I jumped in, I'm like, this is really, really refreshing. I'm going to just say, like, I'm going to say stupid stuff. I'm going to say stuff that just like when I end to when I say stupid, I just mean stuff that's going on. Hey, I'm podcasting with Casey right now. Hey, has anybody thought about XYZ? Hey, has you know, and I'm just like, it just seems new? It seems fresh. So we'll see. We'll see. We'll see what happens with it. Yeah. I think every new feature, there's always opportunity.

KC: 11:00

Yeah, I think every social media platform descends into what gets rewarded. And it kind of, like, ends up there together, like collectively, sort of like the loudest voices get rewarded, and all that kind of stuff. So I can't imagine that it's going to go a different path. But I guess I have a question for you is, why not take that same approach to Twitter?

Trevor: 11:19

Um, I should, does it. So let me ask you this, but I don't have a good response for you.

KC: 11:24

Is it does it feel less intimidating, like sort of the the DTC, I guess, in the DTC specific space? Because that's what you talk a lot about, does it feel like, oh, nobody's come on here and made me feel dumb yet. So I actually can just be myself on this platform without concern of perception. Is that sort of or comparative? I

Mark: 11:43

can let me and let me answer this for Trevor, actually, because I, I think what it is, is that he already built and tell me if I'm wrong, Trevor, this is me psychoanalyzing. Let's see, let's see it. You already built an audience on Instagram. And so Twitter was starting from zero. Yeah. So haphazardly, it's because it's like I'm at zero. I gotta like build an audience. I got to like, you're, you're starting over in a sense, like, with no backing? Where with threads? It's because people can just click follow everyone I already follow. So you can you can shoot up the rankings a lot faster with threads that you couldn't on Twitter?

Trevor: 12:20

Yeah, I think it's to be honest, I think I think it's a little bit of both, you know, from both of what what you said absolutely. Like, when anytime you start from the bottom, it's, you know, it's challenging, but at the same time, there's, there's fun in starting at the bottom to see like what you do. Yeah. But so so I think yes, I would probably say yes to both, to be honest with you. So. And then the and the third thing, there is also the fact that it's, it is a Twitter was the fifth channel. I was on. Yeah, right. You know, for me, so it was like, it was like Instagram, and I when I say Instagram, I take Instagram in two different channels, stories versus the feed. Right. So Instagram Stories feed, tick tock LinkedIn. And then it was in that it was Twitter, you know,

KC: 13:07

when you're, when you're creating content, are you are you because this is I think it's an interesting approach. And it says a lot about different people and sort of what they prioritizes so when you're creating a piece of content, do you think about it through the lens of Instagram first and then repurpose to other channels from that initial post? Is that sort of how your content strategy works?

Trevor: 13:27

Yeah, yeah, a lot of times I will think about it from it. Well, it really, it really does depend. Instagram is usually the first channel I post for I think about it has been Instagram, sometimes it becomes tick tock, you know, because my follower count is roughly the same on both platforms. You know, and so my community is roughly the same. And so that those are the ones that I'm thinking about, but a lot of times, there might be a piece of content, I post on Instagram or Tiktok that I'm like, I can't quite find the right correlation to how I want to repurpose this over to Tik Tok or, or over to LinkedIn, you know, but sometimes I sometimes I do, or sometimes I'll post on LinkedIn because I'm like, this is a really good LinkedIn idea. And I'll think about what are the parallels that would make sense for me to create this into a real or into a Tiktok? And so but yeah, I do start typically with Instagram and Tiktok and then if it makes sense to flow it down the channels to from a repurpose perspective, but I might alter and change some things I'll do that. But a lot of times I'm creating like a new piece for each platform just depending on what I think is gonna hit and perform better.

KC: 14:38

Interesting. So do you feel like i The one thing I think talking about threads that I do think is interesting, which was my first response to it so I was like you were I'm and I go video first before written for the most part I have some written Yeah, I just like video more. I think it's more fun and it's something I've gotten the hang of over the last been doing it for about three years or so. But what I thought about threads was like, like I have tons of video content from Tiktok and Instagram that just doesn't work on Twitter. So to the point of like, I started probably Twitter around the same time as you of like, okay, I'm actually going to go for this and build up some try and build something through this about three or four months ago. And it was like, But none of that stuff repurpose is here, because video just doesn't play nearly as well on Twitter. And so okay, I kind of have to like either transcribe these and then put them into tweets. And like, Man, that's a whole bunch of work. So otherwise, I'll just kind of start from scratch with Twitter. But what I thought about threads was like, Maybe this could be the one of the platform where it all plays. So because it spawned from Instagram, where people are used to reels and are used to images. And now it's sort of incorporating writing like it could threads be the one that's almost like a combination of all the work that I've tried to do across all these different platforms like it kind of just consolidates all into singular thread posts and you build an audience through that that I saw I kind of was excited about it maybe the same way that you were of going like all the things that I do could play here versus going well, video doesn't play here. And own words don't really play as well here and that kind of thing.

Trevor: 16:09

Spot on dude, I've thought the exact same thing. So I start I just posted my first video today to see if that kind of starts to see what happens with it.

KC: 16:17

Because the UX on on like the UX on it's almost like a carousels view on threads with images and stuff like that, where it's actually in the video. Like it's not disruptive. We're in Twitter, you like see a video and it's like you like you don't want to hide because it's like so you're so not used to seeing it right? All of a sudden, it's there. We're in threads, maybe people are just more of like an organic acceptance, because it's spawned from Instagram that's like, Hey, dude, maybe maybe it all plays here.

Trevor: 16:43

It's interesting, I think no matter I mean, the next 30 to 45 days will be very telling on what the platform does. And how people respond to it. You know, I think you're it's like, right now it's like, January in a gym. Right? Everybody's there. And, and so we'll see what happens come February, March.

KC: 17:03

Do you feel pressure? Sorry, the content stuff, I geek out hard over it. So like, do you feel pressure to choose the platform? Do you feel pressure to go? I'm gonna go all in on one. Like, do you feel like this is going to be the main one that I'm building an audience on? Like, do you feel the pressure of that? Because for me, I'm like a threat comes up. And it's like, Man, I feel like I should choose one. Or at least or at least creating content through a specific medium. So video or writing, like, I feel like that does matter. But do you feel the pressure as a creator to go this is my main one that I'm gonna build an audience on, and thus everything else will be repurposed from it.

Mark: 17:38

Do you know what's interesting as an observer, because I'm not really the content creator of our duo Trevor's always trying to get me to create content I need to but I'm more of the observer. It does seem like the people who choose a channel do the best at gaining an audience the quickest.

KC: 17:55

I know that's so I feel to

Mark: 17:58

right. So like if you go to Instagram, I mean, for example, Trevor built an audience really well on Instagram and then built it in Tik Tok on these video based formats. Yep. And then you have these people that are really big and Twitter that just can't gain anything over and Tik Tok or Instagram. Right, their follower counts are so low and and Trevor's really high over there. But in Twitter, they're kind of big hitters in this DTC, e commerce space. So it almost seems like the people that focus just on one channel, we're able to maximize an audience and gain an audience. And then I'm sure there's like a Escape Velocity point where once you hit something, it doesn't really matter what channel either big enough you'll gain the followers. But that's what I think I've analyzed, at least across the spectrum.

Trevor: 18:41

To me, it's less about the pressure of a channel and more about a format. So like, like written versus video. So I just, I just naturally can speak better than I can, right. And so I just naturally I gravitated toward towards video. And so, it, it was if it was and I'm not like a massive creator by any means. But if it was somewhat, no, I'm not gonna use the word easy, but if it was more natural for me to succeed on Instagram, then naturally it was going to be more natural for me to succeed on Tik Tok. Right. And so that's why I put more time into Tik Tok in the beginning, but then I just saw a gap in the market with LinkedIn, for example, which was tons of there just wasn't inventory of good content on ticked on on LinkedIn for a while there. Meaning like, people were just reposting other people's stuff and articles and Forbes 30 under 30s. And people weren't telling stories and talking about you know, providing value and so that's why I was like, I've got to give this a shot. You know, and I've actually really fallen in love with with LinkedIn. And the reason why I like LinkedIn is because I can tell stories in a longer format there. Whereas I cannot do that from a Twitter perspective. And I'm a storyteller. And so to me, it's less about the platform. And it's more about the format. Personally, so

KC: 20:14

if you can only do so if you can only choose one. Oh, wait, hold on, I have a question before you answer that. I think intent matters a lot with content creation. So what what outcome are you trying to create? Are you just trying to build an audience or a following? Are you trying to get them to buy things that you're selling? Are you trying to get them to sign up and be for a newsletter? Like what? Like, basically, like, why do you create? I guess I would ask?

Trevor: 20:39

Yeah, really good question. I mean, the reason why I started to create was because I had felt like my career path. To the point where I started, I had made a boatload of mistakes as a marketer, as an entrepreneur. And I thought, hey, I would love to create a platform that helps people avoid these mistakes and get to a result quicker. And in conjunction, if people see me doing those kinds of things, they're going to be very interested in what I'm doing, and potentially be interested in doing business with me. But very at first it was, and still is very much like, my intent is to help. And because my intent is to help we get a lot of business from

KC: 21:22

it. So it is so the outcome that you're trying to generate is I'm trying to generate business through this but position myself as someone that they you know, that tell stories that shares interesting things that they could relate to that, but but the outcome of like, why we create every day, because I think it's interesting, that a lot of people don't think about it when they're trying to create, and they end up spending hours a day creating. And the reality is, is like there are times where I'm choosing to create over spending time with my kids, right. And so I think, like, and by the way, I'm like, I love being a dad, so nobody can, like judge me based on what I just said. But perhaps it's relatable for some people, but I'm like, without understanding what it is that I'm trying to generate. I'm legit just choosing that over them. And I want to try and understand why it is I understand why I create but for you have like, what's the outcome that you're trying to generate through this content creation? And if some people are like, I just want to become famous, okay, that's fine. Or it's like, oh, I want to try and get people to read my newsletter, or it's like, oh, I want to try and get people to now work with me. So for you, it's very much I do it, because I love it. And I want to tell stories, and I love creating content through that capacity. But the real desired outcome is I want people to work with me and yep, okay. Yeah, absolutely. So back to my other question. Back to my other question, if you can only choose one platform, which would you choose? Instagram.

Trevor: 22:41

Really? Yep.

KC: 22:45

I'm shocked by that.

Trevor: 22:49

Yeah, I've had a love hate relationship with Instagram. But to me, there are few platforms that have the power of community the way Instagram does, if handled and done correctly.

KC: 23:05

That's probably a I won't go into it now. I found I found Instagram, the most difficult platform to grow on. And perhaps I'm doing it incorrectly. But hey,

Trevor: 23:16

I'm not saying I'm growing. Because I'm right now I'm not, you know, I'm growing very, very, very slowly. Like, just just to be 100% honest. But the people I have right now, stick with me. And like, they come to that. And, and I mean, they're, they're they're into their into what's happening, and I'm creating relationships with that's what I mean about the community. It is definitely, definitely the hardest to grow. If I was talking about a one platform for growth sake, only, I tick tick tock, you've got the biggest you can get the biggest bang for your buck. It's definitely gotten harder. You know, it used to be a lot easier 18, two months ago to two years ago. But if you're talking follower growth, that's what I would do. But like I have I have, even though I have just as many followers on Tiktok right now, and I started two years later on Instagram. I don't have a community there. Like my community is not very strong. I

KC: 24:12

think tick tock is the worst community building platform that it exists, it isn't entirely a consumption platform.

Trevor: 24:18

Let's be honest, it's been.

KC: 24:21

Well, 97% of the content is not people that you follow, right? That you see. So it's like you're just seeing new people. So it is for the sake of so they've done a great job of massive maximizing what I think humans want, which is big audiences big following big views, everybody knowing that I exist, but I think and that's actually what I think I would I think a year ago, maybe even closer six months ago, I would have told you the same thing. I would have said Instagram is it. That's my diehard like that's it, I'm all in on it. Because to your point, I think that there's a level of community building through it that sort of was it superpower and I think they lost sight of that being the superpower as it tried to be Come all of these other things. And I think the more you try and beat your competitors, the more you end up looking like them. And I think that's what happened with Instagram. And now even with threads, right to bring it full circle, it's like, it sort of feels like Instagram in some capacity is so obsessed with its competition, that it's completely just made decisions based on how do we compete directly with them versus how do we differentiate from

Trevor: 25:21

Yeah, how do we stand out and

KC: 25:23

that went for? And that's where I think I was like, threads. I was like, cow, Lee Instagram, like, you've got how many billions of users on your direct platform? So I understand transitioning over to this thing and going after Elon? But my gosh, like, why don't you just be different, versus trying to just replicate the same timeline? And then anyway, I won't go down.

Mark: 25:40

But don't you think that's a good segue into DTC because a lot of brands make this mistake over and over where they think, Oh, hey, I have an audience built in of women or man or whatever it might be. So it'll be easy. Let's just launch this auxiliary product, and change our messaging a little bit. And we're just going to take, we're just going to grow our Tam and everything's going to be gravy. And more often than not, they always fail, or not all the more often than not always, I think they'll often

KC: 26:10

I think product expansion is perhaps the most difficult thing in direct to consumer businesses. If you when you like, I think it is so incredibly difficult if you don't do it early on, and bake in a large portfolio of products early on, where customers and alike are just used to seeing a lot of different things from you. And you can kind of build a identity through that, which I think is hard enough in itself. But like at kalo, that was genuinely meetings, we left discouraged going, where do we go from silicone rings? Now that the answer may be for a lot of these brands, you don't go anywhere else, you keep doing what you're doing and find increased distribution channels. But if you look at companies like Yeti and things like that, like they expanded well into other territories, but it's really hard. It's really, really difficult. And to your point mark of like, oh, cool, that we made that mistake. We've got this, we've got 1.5 million email subscribers, like, all we have to do is tell them we're selling something else and put our name on it, and we're gold, maybe like this is it, we're off to another vertical. And that's a very humbling experience, or at least it wasent

Trevor: 27:11

Casey, why do you think that is? Let's unpack that a little bit. Because I think I actually really liked this. I know we I've made a mistake with it. Mark and I we used to be we used to run the marketing for a company that was selling women's diaper bags. And we thought, hey, like, women only need so many diaper bags, you know, and so we thought to ourselves, what if we, and this was during the pandemic, when loungewear was such a massive, massive, you know, everyone was just in their pajamas, because no one had to go to work anymore. Right? And so we're like, let's launch a women's like, all inclusive, loungewear line, and that it can hit moms and all that kind of stuff. And we had a massive Mark, how big was our list? You know, I mean, two to 400,000, you know, subscribers. And I remember when we launched the product, how underwhelmed I was with how many how little people showed up, and actually like, came to bat with it. So what why is that? Why is it so challenging to do that?

KC: 28:19

So I'd probably I'd probably say three things. So the first one, just straightforward. I think you find success in one thing, and you delusionally begin to operate under the assumption that everything you do touches, everything you touch turns to gold. And so I think you go like, well, we crush this like we could crush anything else. Right? So I think that there's just an arrogance that comes along with finding success through one product in one channel that warranted or unwarranted, I think happens with a lot of CEOs. And a lot of companies when they get to a certain point. The second is, I think it's Marc Andreessen that has the quote that everybody's time is already allocated. And I would say, for the most part, everyone's loyalty is already allocated. And by that I mean to other products. So I think that it's like the odds are of like, we like I guess with the keel example, we have silicone rings, and it's like, well, we're going to expand to sunglasses. And it's like, while all your consumers that are buying been buying your rings for however long are most likely already loyal to a sunglasses brand, or to a price that they pay for sunglasses. So price and brand I think people become loyal to. So I think people don't understand that fact. They think oh, they love my brand of this. And therefore if I launch my brand of that they will buy enough sometimes it works. Right like TOMS Shoes moving to sunglasses was sort of an example of that, like so. But I think again, everyone's loyalties already allocated. So I would say that would be the second and then I think a third one which is like what I spend a lot of time talking about with CEOs is like, I think most people fundamentally misunderstand business strategy. And one thing that they drastically underestimate is that every new strategic Each decision you make opens you up to a new batch of competitors, who are probably I would say, all in on that singular product where for you, it may be a secondary product, there may be all in on that singular product. And so some examples of that would be, like geography. Like one thing that people, I hear DTC founders all the time talk about is like, Well, I'm just going to expand to a different country. Like, I'm just going to expand. That's just easy. And I'll give you an example. So, kalo, we, we were like, oh, we'll just expand into Australia. Like, we'll just make that expansion. And I lived in Australia for the last few years. So I made this mistake as a human being, oh, they speak English. They've got a lot of similar cultural things to America. And so we should just be able to insert ourselves into that territory and be as successful as we were here. But every time you make one new strategic decision, so meeting a new need for a customer entering a new geographical territory, coming out with a new product, and or changing your price point would be some examples of strategic changes in decision making, is you're now opening yourself up to a brand new group of competitors, a new culture, new customers, all sorts of different things. And I think that people just don't understand that once you do that, like once you decide to now okay, we sold silicone rings, now we're going to sell sunglasses, there's consumers behave differently, why they buy sunglasses is different than the way that they would have bought your product. Other competitors in there are different. They know consumers really well. And so it opens you up to a new batch. And people underestimate that. And I think that that's a huge problem from a strategic perspective. Now, I think you look at like the Procter and Gamble's of the world that have done product expansion incredibly well with the brands that they own. And it's like, I think that they understand strategy very well. And they understand how to enter a new new market in a way with a new product from the existing one that they're already selling.

Mark: 31:53

Yeah. And there's like, two things I want to unpack out of that snippet. I mean, for one, you mentioned TOMS Shoes, expanding Well, into a different category. But now I think that's actually a good example. You say it was? Well,

KC: 32:10

I think they expanded into sunglasses. I think the proof would be in the pudding of TOMS Shoes that it didn't go all that well. Yeah, because that didn't go.

Mark: 32:20

So in Toms Shoes, Toms Shoes thought that they? Yeah, they thought they had brand loyalty because they thought that the people were buying their shoes for a bigger reason other than the shoes. Yep. when really it became a, I don't know what you'd call it like a status symbol. Right? That you're a good person, I bought TOMS Shoes, because I care about all brands.

KC: 32:42

In Africa, all brands are status symbols. I want somebody else to think this about me. That's all of it. Yep, that's what

Mark: 32:48

exactly, but but their status symbol wasn't good enough to branch out and try doing a new thing. And that happens every time. So the Pandora's box also that you just talked about of? There's always unintended consequences for every decision ever, you know, the grass isn't always greener, because that grass has different problems. So you don't know what you're actually getting into until you're you're in it. Right? And my question is, when when brands are trying to establish what they do, how often for example, for k low? Did you guys talk to customers to figure out and do market research panels? How much research went into a decision of trying to launch a new product? Or was it? Oh, hey, we did this right. So this product makes sense. Because oftentimes, we see that companies don't really do any research. It's really just, hey, like, we talked to some friends and like a few customers told us to do this, but there's not a real rigorous effort to understand a customer's decision making and if they could actually break into that.

KC: 33:51

Yeah, so I would say we didn't do it. Well, we definitely fell into the category of, hey, we've done this well, not entirely of a we've done this well, so we could do anything. I was actually very cautious of that like, like, hey, let's not fall into this thinking like I've we've seen plenty of companies out there that think they could put their logo on something and sell it. But for us, what I would say we did a lot of was customer data and research. So we would send out surveys and so like we released one product that we released that actually was successful at kala which was a departure but it was part of a larger vision that I don't think ever got realized. But it was really silicone dog tags, like customizable silicone dog tag. Now people are like, rings to that. Well, it's like we were trying to go sort of all encompassing outdoors family route was sort of the direction that we were headed. So for us, it kind of made sense. In hindsight, and for a different podcast, I probably would have put it under a different brand, but that's okay. So that's one thing that we did really well and so one way that one thing that we did is we talked to our customers, what percentage of the million and whatever email subscribers we have, how many of you have dogs how Many of you have kids, how many like so we kind of did customer research, not that I wouldn't necessarily say market research, we didn't do a good job of market research. But I would say we did a decent job like we hired a company to come in and basically like, audit all of our customers, who are customers, why are they buying? What do they care about? Who do they follow. And so we did a lot of existing customer research, because our strategy with expansion was, if we can sell to our existing audience, we'll do that first and then sort of branch out from there, probably to try and increase the LTV of existing customers, because we were selling silicone wedding rings that people didn't buy 20 of. So I would say we did enough to go, Okay, this is worth a shot. But we did not want. Here's, here's one thing that I didn't talk about. But Mark, you brought it up in terms of like differentiation. So one thing I think people don't realize, is that initially, people buy products to solve problems. And a lot of times when you expand, you think the problem is our brand wasn't there. And that's the problem we're solving. They want our brand so much, that if we put our brand there, the their their problem, these customers problem is they want our brand there so badly. And it's not there. That's actually the problem we're solving. So we'll just give them this crappy pair of something. And they'll buy it because our brands attached to it. And I think at the end of the day, like people buy products to solve problems. And I would say one of the big things that we underestimated in product expansion was, how are we solving a problem for customers through this product that is different than what is already being solved in the market. And I think customers don't buy they choose. And they choose based on differentiation. And that's how people are able to coexist within markets. And I think we just didn't do a great job of going, oh, there's a very specific problem here that we want to try and solve.

Trevor: 36:47

Yeah, I think I spot I like that, you know, I think so often, people, people go about fixing a, I'm trying to figure out how I want to word this. Sorry, guys, I just lost my train of thought I'll get back to it.

Mark: 37:06

Well, I was gonna, I think you I think the train of thought might be heading towards this marketing to marketers, right? Like, you get so caught up in what the C suite thinks that your own company, yep. That you forget the needs and the problems of consumers. And people aren't thinking about you all the time, like people think about you or hardly ever they think about themselves all day.

Trevor: 37:29

Totally. Well, not only not only that, but I think that I think that customers put themselves in communities that they don't necessarily understand that they are a part of. And within the specific communities, there are different ways to solve certain problems. And so if you expand a specific product that would would take you into a different community. The current community of people that you have aren't going to buy it, even though it could be something that they might want, need or desire. But they're already a part of another kind of community of people who are buying these types of things. You know, we had a really interesting conversation with on the podcast with Chris Hall, who is the he's the head of marketing for Bruce bolt. And he said, Hey, like, the reason why Bruce bolt wins, is because we market it to an existing community of people who just needed something, you know, whereas if they were to start to, let's say, they could, because Bruce ball could say, Hey, we're sports. Let's go create gloves for football players. You know, we created gloves for baseball players, let's create gloves for football players. But they're they're entering into a community of, well, maybe there isn't a bigger, maybe there's not a big travel football community that way, there's a really big travel baseball community, because that's their community that they serve, you know. And so it's it's also you got to you got to bring in the community aspect of how people buy as well, I think.

KC: 39:03

Yeah, I mean, I think it's like, anytime you're trying to create something new in the customers minds, it's like, like, it's a really difficult thing to do versus speaking to what already exists in the minds of your customers, which is sort of the art of positioning, but I love the EECOM cowboy shout out by the way. He's a great dude.

Trevor: 39:18

He was an absolute stud to have on the podcast.

Mark: 39:22

And all American senator So yeah, that's right.

KC: 39:26

so versatile.

Trevor: 39:28

He really was. He really was. Casey, how did you guys how did you guys come up with like we've talked a lot about I feel like we not that we necessarily skipped a step, but I want to like jump back a little bit because we talked about you have a product and the trouble or the challenge of entering, you know, creating new products and getting your current existing customers to buy it. Talk to us about how you guys came up with the kalo idea to launch just in general. Just is just a new product a new brand and in general and solving a problem?

KC: 40:05

Yeah, sure, I wish it was a story riddled with genius. But I don't think there was much of it there. A lot of it was sort of just a couple of guys trying to figure figure something out and solve a problem for ourselves. So I think companies can do themselves or founders can do themselves a huge disservice by being the customer that you're trying to solve problems for. Now, that doesn't always happen. But for us, it was a personal problem that we had. So I for people that entire context. So we created the silicone wedding ring. So I married my wife in 2012. And it's irrelevant to the story. And about three months after that my eventual business partner, married his wife. And so we were a couple of newlyweds. We worked in a restaurant in Los Angeles, he managed the restaurant and I sort of bartended and served at it. And I had since being married, I was super stoked to wear a ring newlywed, I love what a ring represents my wife's the best. So I was super stoked to wear one. But I just found myself taking a metal ring off all the time. And to be honest, I didn't do market research, I didn't go ask my 50 buddies, like, what do they do with their metal rings, like that wasn't at all what we did, I was just like, man, it's a pain I took it off to I would take it off to work out. And then I leave it in my gym bag for three days. Or honestly, I would break wine glasses bartending with my ring, or I got a blood blister playing golf. And I was like, Look, I'm not, I'm not a professional athlete, here. I'm not the most active guy in the world, but I still do live life in a certain way. Like, this doesn't make any sense, like, and I always equated it to like, I'm not going to go buy a Rolex, and then just like wear it, mountain biking, you know, like, it just doesn't make sense. And so people are changing shoes out for different occasions, they're changing watches out for different occasions, maybe even sunglasses out for very specific use cases like so all of these accessories, clothes, people are changing all the time. But this sort of represents this one thing, that every bit that is just a constant. Everybody's just wearing it. And so I was like, Man, this doesn't make sense. But I wasn't really planning on doing anything about it, to be honest with you. And then my eventual business partner, Ted. One day in passing at the restaurant, we started talking about wedding rings. And he was like, Oh, I'm just not wearing one. And I was like, Oh, really? And he's like, Yeah, I've been trying to like, look for something else that I could wear, because my wife wants me to wear one. And I was like, oh, man, that's crazy. Like, I'm not wearing one either. And it was like, well, maybe there's, you know, like, there's got to be something else that we can wear. And he had already been looking for it and stuff. And he's like, I'm unable to find anything. I was like, well, let's go. We can see if we can actually find anything we couldn't. We sort of reconvened a week later. And we were like, what if we did it? And I have, you know, like the guys that started power balance. My brother worked at power balance way back in the day. And like, all controversy aside, zero, and they had zero intention of becoming a becoming sir. I mean, the perception that it did, and they're awesome dudes that started it. And so I knew that they'd created a silicone band before and everybody was wearing these LIVESTRONG bands. And it was like, together, we were like, what if we made it out of silicone? Well, alright, yeah, that that should work. Why wouldn't that work? Everybody's already doing it. And so him and I kind of looked at each other. And it was like, Let's go for it, man. Like, why not? And my goal was, I was making two grand a month waiting tables, trying to be an actor. And my goal was like, Man, if I could replace two grand a month, I would I could, like, I'd be rich, like, this is it? This is all I'm like, I would be living the dream. I was 2423 when I got 2324 When I got married, and then started Kayla at the same time. So he had a friend in town, who had a manufacturer that that she was meeting with. I think it was at the Beverly Hilton for her company. And he basically my partner is like, let's just go crush it, we're gonna go crush it. So we went and sat down at this thing told her Hey, we're gonna come sit down. And she's like, Alright, whatever. So we sat down, basically ambush the manufacturer, we had gone to Marshalls and bought metal wedding rings for like 20 bucks, just these examples of what we wanted him to make slid the rings across the table and said, Hey, man, can you make these out of silicone? And he like, wasn't even a silicone manufacturer. But if you know anything about manufacturing, a lot of times it's like, yes, sure, we can do that. And then they go figure it out on the other side, whether or not they actually can. And there's like, Yeah, sure. And it's like, okay, well, here's the money we have, which isn't much because we bootstrapped the whole thing. And sure enough, but six weeks later, I was driving over to his house, his family's house, this manufacturer, I was driving over to his house, giving him money to get the first shipment of rings over my partner went and I think he sort of like, I don't know, whatever, it doesn't matter. Now. I think, like illegally got them from LAX, like, and got our first bring, like, the rest is history. And we built a website, a Shopify website that we launched March 1 of 2013. And then kind of the rest is history. So it was very much back to the original question of like problem solving and market research for us. We were like, we were a couple of dudes that lived active lives and a metal ring didn't make sense. And we were like, Let's just try and solve this. We didn't like econ was still very young. We didn't know anything about building websites about selling anything, but For us, it was like we've got this problem. Let's just try and figure out who else in the world may have. And also, and that sort of was our growth strategy early on.

Trevor: 45:07

Dude, I love that. I think that there's such a massive lesson in just solving a problem for you because I like I think a lot of times as individuals and consumers, we think that we are oftentimes in the minority when it comes to everyday problems. Right. But when something is an everyday problem, and you don't have an unusual lifestyle, right now, it chances are, it's a it's an everyday problem for a lot of people. Right? Now, if it's just a if it's a one off problem from time to time, that's a different, that's a different story. That's I'm talking about, but yours, this is something you're talking like, Hey, I got this every single day. Like every day, I'm dealing with this, you know, and I'm not I don't have an unusual job where I'm using my hands, right? Like, yeah, I might be a bartender, but there's construction workers, right? There are athletes, there are people who are just lifting their golfers there, you go on and on and on. Like, I love the genesis of how that started. Because sometimes, product ideas and opportunities are so much more simplistic than we think. And I actually liked how you started the conversation like, Hey, I wish there was a more brilliant story to this. But like, to me, that's how some of the best best products are ever started is there isn't a brilliant story to it. It was just like, hey, I needed to fix to this.

Mark: 46:31

Yeah, dude. And the other thing I love about that story is, is it shows how starting a company is different than running a company. So like starting a product is very different than running a company and then trying to expand because this is this is not that strange of a founder story. This is generally what we find in DTC, most founders stories are I had a personal problem. And then I solved my personal problem. And then they get caught up after running a business and figuring it out into they're not really living a personal problem anymore. They tried guessing what to do with their company instead of going back to the basics of what you said before. So I liked this conversation because it kind of started on on really the the progression of like running the company. Now we're back to the founding. So if you're starting a company, it's almost best just to think personal right? What problem can I solve for myself or someone close to me? How do I make it as real and tangible of a problem as possible? But then you start running the company and you kind of become distant from that problem. And then how do you go back into solving problems again later in the business? And I'd love to know from you after you solve that problem. You start scaling kalo. We talked before this podcast that you obviously you're great at coaching because you've coached up a bunch of legends in the DTC space that all started at kalo moved over to some of them moved over to see to see some of them started their own agencies like your brother, Taylor holiday. You gotta Casey or you got to go to what is it Cody, Cody Winnick, and then

KC: 48:07

Andrew farriss Barris is Kayla. Yeah, some brilliant minds. Yeah.

Mark: 48:12

So how did you build a team to continue to solve this problem and scale it? Right, because this marketing team is pretty pretty legendary. So how did you do that? And establish the foundation for all these people to go off and be successful by themselves.

Trevor: 48:26

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Mark: 48:54

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Trevor: 49:36

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KC: 49:56

yet, truthfully, I think Kayla The entity should take way more credit for their development than me. I think I what I did exceptionally well was provide them an environment, that learning was encouraged and we realized that we didn't have it all figured out. And for the most part, we were a bunch of young people that were kind of just each day at a time trying to solve a new problem that the entity threw at us. And so the the biggest credit I can probably take for their development is I started kalo and it provided that environment for them. But like, guys, like I mean, my brother was a brilliant mind before he came on board and played a huge role in the scale of kalo on the marketing side, Andrew came on board in the early days and learned paid media sort of in the trenches on the front lines of kalo and Cody, sort of an influencer seating because we had relationships with athletes and came in and took over how we built relationships with athletes, which I think was again another superpower of ours, that he played a role. And and so I think, actually, personally, I benefited and as well as the entity benefited more from those guys brilliance coming in, and their ability to solve problems quickly than the other way around. But I think a lot of it early on was it was the early days of a lot of things. And so there wasn't a playbook. And I actually think it's been really interesting, as I've spent more time on Twitter, and even as I've coached CEOs, that I've kind of yo yoing back and forth on how much templates people how much of a playbook someone needs versus the detriment of having a playbook. And I think in the early days of kalo, we didn't have a playbook, we created it. And credit to my brother and Andrew on the marketing side very much. So creating that playbook of how we entered markets, how we spoke to customers, how we sold products, how we ran ads, how we scaled quickly. And then I was very much on building the team and the team building side of things. And I think that the the way that we were able to get chalo out there and grow and learn things really create an environment where everybody developed and grew. And it I think led to a ton of our success.

Trevor: 52:07

What are some of the so now you like what you're doing now, like as we fast forward? Like you are a you know, an executive coach, right? You coach people on executive team CEOs of businesses, what are some of the problems that you're seeing most of these entrepreneurs, CEOs, executives facing? What what's what's also a common thing that you're dealing with right now? Are you seeing some commonalities?

KC: 52:38

Yeah, I think so I probably say going back to sort of the playbook example, I just use I think a lot of people are looking for the right answer to things and they don't exist, like there is no right answer to things. And I think going back again, more time on tour, everybody's looking for a template, everybody's looking for a playbook ever. And it's like, hey, every, every piece of every absolute, sort of, as we talked about on Twitter should come with, Hey, this is what worked for me. But there's zero guarantee it will work for you. Right, it may actually be really detrimental for you to follow the playbook. And so I think what everybody's looking for is, what is this generalized template or playbook that will give me all of the right answers that I can just do and find the success that you had. And business is the greatest game on the planet. And it's the same thing, like I equate a lot of things to sports, you get in a game, you have a plan going into a game, I think you should have a plan. And I think business owners should have a plan we've gotten people are so scared of business plans. And it's like because it feels like a three ring binder with 70 pages in it of things that are going to change a month later. Yes, that's true. But I'd way rather have a plan and find out it's wrong than not have one at all. So I think you should have a plan going in. But the second the whistle is blown in a sports game. One guy gets hurt. You realize this matchup you thought was going to be a benefit and advantage is now a disadvantage. Like you just learn things as you go. And there's no formulaic template that you can plug into your business that's going to give you the right answers. And I think living and existing and uncertainty for CEOs is something you have to get really comfortable with. And I think that's why a lot of people don't want to become entrepreneurs, a lot of entrepreneurs realize, oh, shoot, this isn't exactly what I thought it was all cracked up to be. Because there isn't a silver bullet. There isn't a playbook there isn't a template. And I think one thing it kalo in the early days because it was early days of Facebook marketing. It was for like brands obviously had been built for hundreds of years. But like it was sort of a different way of doing it through paid media like there was no playbook. And now if you look at a lot of what my brother is doing through CTC, what Andrew is doing through his consulting and what he did through CTC through a while what Cody is doing is they're going, Hey, here's a playbook. And they're trying their best to try and give people resources. And I think they would tell you there's no exact playbook that's going to work for everything but here's resources and tools that will help you come to the decisions that are right for you. business, but I think a lot of CEOs are looking for somebody to tell them what the right answer is. And even through my coaching, a lot of people will hire me and go, I was just expecting you to tell me what to do. And I said, No, no, I help you. I help provide you context for the decisions that need to be made. And then you make them. And then we ensure on the other side, that the decision we made was the right one. We don't get mad at ourselves thinking that oh, that wasn't that was that wasn't the right decision. You've got two forks in the road, you choose one and you do everything you can to ensure that was the right decision that you made based on all of the other behaviors and execution that you have in your business. But I think that's one thing that I would say it's like, especially people that are like trying to make a quick buck, or trying to order to scale this company really fast, is they think that there's this playbook and there's not then they get themselves into a lot of trouble.

Mark: 55:47

Yeah. Can I? Can I ask you a question? Please? Let's first draw. Let's draw a parallel to music. Do you like music? I do. I do like Rick Rubin.

KC: 55:59

I've gotten a lot of recruitment comments because of the trailer that I work out of. But apart from that I'm not super familiar with. Like, I know the name, I know the name. I'm getting exposed here on the podcast, but keep going.

Mark: 56:11

Well, you know, he's a, he's a famous record producer. He's clearly won tons of Grammys, and he has a similar philosophy, right with working with musicians. And I think what you've exposed here about entrepreneurship, and running a business is that it's really more of a creative role than it is a templated role, right? You're not a specialized worker, if you're an entrepreneur, you're you're, you're creating something, you're creating a business. It's kind of a living, breathing thing. And if you look at music, Jimi Hendrix like Eric Clapton, all of these legends are self taught. It's not like they they went and sat down and got taught it. I mean, yes, they had people to help them along the way. I'm not saying they did everything by themselves. They had coaches, right, like you. But ultimately, it was something that they were creating along the way it and experimenting with and trying to figure it out, the Beatles spent years in Germany, just figuring things out. Yeah, there

KC: 57:07

was a right where they would go play every night in Germany playing right?

Mark: 57:12

Yeah, yeah, just had a bar in Germany. And so they didn't have this template to become who the Beatles are that we think of. Right, it was a form of art and creativity. And it helps to have someone like you come along and expose that for people and bring them back to the basis of Yes, like music, there are foundational principles of music that you need to follow, or at least as a guide rail of how you create it. But ultimately, we are experimenting and creating, and trying to make something that people relate to and can identify with, and ultimately purchase, vote with their dollars. So in order to do that, you can't just come in and be like, Oh, I'm just going to follow this template or copy this other company, and everything's going to be gravy. It's it is a work in process all the time. And so when you coach people, and they realize this, I'm sure some of them have had some, like deer in the headlights looks when you're like, oh, actually, no, I'm not going to solve all your problems. I'm going to help you be creative about your problems. What's the how do you get those people to, to get into a state of mind of being more creative about their business and how they're solving problems?

KC: 58:25

Yeah, well, I'll tell you, it's a terrible sales pitch to tell people I'm not going to solve their problems for them. Right, like, you know, so that doesn't always go over well in the first conversation. But I think here's what I would say I a lot of the so I, mainly who I coach are sort of seven figure founders, meaning like CEOs of seven figure businesses, or founders of seven figure businesses that are kind of going like, Hey, I'm starting to realize that companies don't starve they drown. Because in the early days, it's very much like, oh, my gosh, is a customer ever gonna buy my product I'm never going to eat. And then actually, what happens is companies start eating. And then they start realizing, Oh, this is getting bigger than me. And now I feel like I'm drowning. And so that's kind of that's that shift happens. But what I find a lot of times is to your point there, I love what you talked about. And I would sort of see those the differentiation for those in business strategy and execution. So I think that there are principles of business just like there are principles of music that you need to follow, because that's just how it's done. And it's been done for 1000s of years. And that those are like the fundamentals. But it's what you do outside of those fundamentals that make you unique and make you different and help you sort of win as a musician, right, the creative element of it. And so what I often was like my process of working with a CEO, is the first thing I do is I lift up every rock, so I'll do like a performance assessment. Somebody may call it like an audit, sometimes audit scare people, but it basically you go like, I gotta get inside your head. That's the that's the first thing I can do. And I almost operate like as if you are hiring a Chief of Staff. It's like You've got to be an extension to me, I want to be an extension of you. And I want to lift up every rock and find every problem that you're probably too close to acknowledge exists or you're pretending doesn't exist. So you may not know it, you may be like, that's a hard thing for me to confront with team building, maybe I have the wrong people, gosh, that scary, all uncovered that for you. And I'll go through this process. And I'll realize which of the principles and or fundamentals of the business they're missing, because until you have those, you cannot elevate yourself outside of them to think creatively about how it is that you're going to win. And so the execution side to me is like, you've got to have a forecast, in direct to consumer, because I guess that's more of the audience, right? You've got to have a product calendar, you've got to have the marketing calendar associated with it, you've got to have a financial forecast, you have to have a demand plan for inventory. And then you've got to understand the people that are going to help you fulfill all of these needs, right? So that's kind of like, which of these do you have? And there's other business things like, Do you have operating agreements and things like that, but that's like it. But it's like, I can't sit with you. And think creatively about how we win. If you are answering customer service emails today, or you don't have a financial forecast of that's telling you how much you should spend on paid ads next month. Like if you don't have any kind of roadmap, like I can't do much to help you. But the strategy side of it, which is a little bit comes before the exit, I mean, it needs to come before the execution. But I think it's a sort of a moving target. So where I say I said earlier is like people I think fundamentally misunderstand strategy strategy is it's a, it's your best guess at how you win. That's what strategy is. And it's a collection of choices that you make to differentiate yourself in a market and provide superior performance to your competitors. That's what strategy is. And if you don't know how you're gonna win the game, like all of the other stuff is also worthless. So you kind of need to go through this initial exercise of like, how is it that we're going to win? How are those decisions reflected in our plan? Let's make sure we have that plan. And then let's step a step out and figure out what's wrong with our strategy, what's right about our strategy, what's wrong with our strategy, and then you kind of advanced forward doing it that way. And so that's my process of working with CEOs. But on the strategy side, kind of, like you said, that's, I would say, that's the creative side, because that's actually how you win. Like creating a plan and executing on a plan is not how you win. But a plan is comfortable, a plan makes me feel safe. If I if I have a plan, like if my if I were going on vacation, I've got a plan for every day, I feel like I'm somewhat in control of the environment, right. And I think a lot of people are like, that's what I need. And I want that and gotta have this plan, but they don't have it. And so that's why they feel a bit out of whack. But I think to your point, Mark is like where are you when it's on the strategy side? So that's why are you meeting these needs for these customers? Why are you charging this amount? Why are you acquiring customers that way, and that's the creative side. And that's actually how you win and to credit. My team at kalo and the Andrews of the world, my brother and all of the other team members that I had that were incredibly valuable. We early on said this is how we're going to win. And then we went hard after it. And that was sort of the creativity of kale and how I think we found success. And I think it's the combination of those two things, the principles and the fundamentals, as well as a clear understanding of how you win, but how you win is scary, because it's your best guess. And investing your time, money and inviting other people into something and paying for their lives and their families. Under this umbrella of something that I think is going to work is incredibly scary. But that's also why it's the most fun game in the world.

Trevor: 1:03:35

Yeah. What what I loves fascinating what I love about every podcast, there's always I mean, there's been obviously there's been dozens of nuggets in the podcast, but to me, like, the biggest nugget. And takeaway is that like we live in a, we live in an immediate, like a world full of immediacy, right, which is like, I need this done for me. Now. I want the results now. And I think that's what's happening, right? Especially on social media, you have so many social media gurus who are creating the courses and the business plans and these things that are templatized to every business, and you can you can buy him for $29 and you can buy him for $29,000 and everybody has something different I'm not I'm not knocking on courses at all, because I think courses can add a lot of them can be great, right? I'm gonna get personal, but the thing is, is no, there's no one idea for a DTC business that helps them all succeed or else every single DTC business would be crushing it, you know, and so, or any business at that matter is so what I'm loving about this conversation is understand what you said which is the fundamentals and the principles, right. You know, a understanding your unit economics that is just a fundamental to business, right, and you can, you can get a pretty laid out detailed template of how to understand that Right, and how to understand that your how your cogs fitted, and your acquisition costs and your lifetime value, like you can understand those principles. But at the end of the day, what it is going to take is just you getting in the trenches, and trying to figure it out. And what you said was your best guess, right? This is my best guess, on how we're going to do it. And so that's what that's the importance of a good leader is being able to go in and lead that charge while understanding the fundamentals and principles along the side. So I love that.

KC: 1:05:27

It's making bold choices. And I think like, the greatest example I have of this, like, whether you agree with it or not, is if you look at the collection of really successful CEOs over the years, they have made one or two bold decisions, either when they've started the company or when they've taken the helm. So for instance, again, whether you agree with it or not, when Elon took over Twitter, what did he do? drastically changed the culture and made bold choices about what they were going to do. And guess what he's saying, may fail. But I'd rather I would way rather place my own bets than place no bets at all, and try and ride on somebody else's bets that they made. And I think you'd look at this with Steve Jobs when he came in took over Apple again, I think you look at Henry Ford in the early days, like a lot of people think Henry Ford. He's like the guru of all things, a lot of things a lot of people don't understand Henry Ford hired a CEO named James Couzens, that actually built Ford. And he stayed in the warehouse and the manufacturing of the cars because that's where his superpower was. And he said, I recognize this. And I fully acknowledge that this is where my I am best, a best resource for my entity. And I'm going to hire James cousins to run the business. And that's how it all worked. And then after a certain amount of years, the story is that he got jealous with cousins fired him and then tanked Ford in his grandson came and saved it. But like a lot of people don't understand that's a bold choice by by somebody that's as talented as Henry Ford was in starting Ford Motors, right, like so these are bold choices. And it's like you, as a CEO strategically have to make these bold choices. But a lot of people haven't. A lot of people and this is this is where DTC gets in trouble in trouble, Trevor is some people can actually find success, just following gurus advice to a certain point. But sustainability is how you win in business. And what you find is a lot of DTC brands become unsustainable, because the way that they've built things was not through strategic thinking and sustainability, thinking of organic growth, all of these things, everybody wants a microwave, nobody wants an oven. Right. And it's the same thing with DDC. So you can create some success in the first one or two years paid media, paid media paid media, but then you've got 98% of your traffic, everyone's coming from paid media. Now all of a sudden, your CPMs change, your acquisition costs change, or the iOS rules change. And now all of a sudden, Facebook is an oh, shoot, now the business is done. Right? Because I kind of just followed this one playbook and this one game plan versus long term thinking and business building. And I try and help CEOs view their business not through the lens of today, but through the lens of sort of what is the next one to three years look like for you? And how do we ensure that you're still here? because not a lot of companies sell. But a lot of CEOs have built a ton of wealth by having a company that's profitable. Yeah.

Mark: 1:08:11

Oh, yeah. And, and I think a lot of what you're saying, I just watched The Revenant for the first time last week. So nice. I think I think it's interesting to think about it this way, right? You can a lot of explorers back then or frontiers men weren't really experts at what they did and didn't know how to think of things creativity, like they just like pushed the boundaries. Right. But an explorer like Hugh Glass, right? But the a lot of those people wouldn't survive if they got attacked by a bear. They'd be dead. Right? Yeah, but But Hugh Glass did survive. And why did he survive? It's because he could think creatively once the actual problem arose about living in the wilderness, right? Like, oh, it is dangerous. Oh, I Yes. Like I know how to navigate it. And I know there's bears here. But now I'm now I'm bleeding to death. And I gotta find a way to like, heal myself and throw maggots on my open wounds and eat bark and crawl and, and make it back to survive another day. And that that takes creativity. I mean, Picasso is also a really interesting example of this, right? He was claimed he was trained in classical realism as an artist just like everyone else in his age, but he eventually had to make a bold and creative decision of exploring abstract art. And that's why everyone knows him today. And so many entrepreneurs think that they have to have their Picasso moment up like right at the beginning, and they're not going to have that moment right at the beginning. It's going to take the foundations, they're going to get hit by a bear along the way, they're gonna realize it's way harder than you think it is to actually live out there in the forest of entrepreneurship. But if you can supply them with the right tools and the right mindset, they're going to be able to survive and get back and then succeed and grow, like you said they can get as far as they can with a guru. And that's great. But eventually a bear is going to come out and hit you. And then what do you do? I like it.

KC: 1:10:12

Yeah, I think I think you're right. It's it's the capacity to solve problems and do it creatively. You know, I think that's really what it comes down to. And that can be scary. And you're right, there's a lot of bears that exist out there. So I think you're spot on, dude, I love how you bring sort of like, the creative artistic element into a lot of the business building side of things, man, like, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's business building is way more of an art form than it is a science. And I think that that's few people understand that. And they're trying to science and systematize and process drive everything. And it just there's, there's no right answers that exist out there for you to go find. You have to just go create them. And a lot of times success is measured in like in hindsight, right? It's like, you know, when somebody's making it, there's probably a ton of critics out there that are telling them, they're an idiot. And then 10 years later, they're looking back on like, I always said, That person was a genius. And I knew those decisions were right. Monday morning, quarterback of it all. And it's like, that's why it takes a lot of courage to make decisions that few people agree with in the in the, in the now in the immediate, but at the same time, a lot of them fail, a lot of them succeed. But that's kind of part of the game and why you sort of have to see it that way.

Trevor: 1:11:18

Totally agree, man.

Mark: 1:11:19

Did this is my question and my question for you then start wrapping this up, as you're thinking about what we've learned from you working out there? What creative tool set? Do you think entrepreneurs need to start looking at? To navigate the next five years, we have new platforms are rising? Right? We have everything happening? What's the principle that you think entrepreneurs need to focus on with marketing?

KC: 1:11:49

So I would say as we've seen, there has been a new there's there's fads, and we're humans are A, we're a fickle being. And even like, this is how this conversation started, where it's like, we have Twitter, and somehow everybody runs to threads, which is really just Twitter with a mask on, right? Like, for the most part, it's like it, but everybody runs to this next new thing. And because social media, it's like, it just loves to beat things over our head. So we all kind of follow it. And it's like, if you've ever been to like a little kid soccer game, like, that's kind of what it is. And I try my best to understand, like, I try my best to be the kid that's not chasing after the ball, you know, and it's like, maybe there's the one kid and maybe they don't care about soccer. But for me, I try and be the kid that's out there. That's kind of like waiting for the ball to pop out from the mob. So I can go score it. And so what I mean by that is, I think it's important as marketers that we understand the tools that are coming out, and how people are utilizing them to be more effective. And efficiency and effectiveness. For me, I have a take on where I think billion dollar companies should be efficient. I think small companies should be effective. And another podcast where I can go into that. But basically what I think I think it's really valuable to understand why everybody's running their chat, GBT is an example. Right? Why Brady's running there, what that ball is, how it could help me. But then stay on the outside where it's like, I also want to stay true to the principles that are not shaken by waves of fads coming and going. And so what I think still remains true. Regardless of the amount of AI, regardless of the amount of tools is that? People, build companies, and people bring creativity to companies. Like if you go ask chat GBT to tell you funny jokes and to be really creative. That's still a superpower. And an advantage that humans will, I believe, always hold over technology. And I think that as you move forward, I would encourage people to be the little kid that's standing outside of the mob chasing the soccer ball waiting for that ball to pop out to figure out how they can use it to go score goal, through principles and through things that remain to be truth. While all sort of these fads come up and down, if that makes sense. And I would say at the end of it, it's like, I give me the best person over the best tool every day of the week. And I think that we are obsessed, because we are trying to build companies in ways where margin is squeezed and we're spending a ton on paid and all of this and op X is reducing down to five to 10% to build successful e commerce companies. And I don't know that I necessarily subscribe to that line of thinking. And I would say that the greatest advantage that I think you can give your company is an incredible human that can solve problems creatively with you, but also with you understand how to use the tools that are being presented and that come out Every year so we're every, every sort of preceding year over the next five. So

Trevor: 1:15:06

awesome data. I love that that was gonna be I was gonna ask a question that was going to elicit a very similar response. So I won't, I won't ask my, my question. So I appreciate it. Casey, thank you so much, dude, for your time this has been. This has been super awesome. I love I love where we started. I love already ended. And your insights have been great. Where can people find you to continue outside of the podcast to get more insights like this from you?

KC: 1:15:35

Sure. Yeah. So as we mentioned earlier on across all platforms on at its it s Casey, just the two letters Casey holiday, it's Casey holiday across all social platforms. So follow like, subscribe, do all the good things. And then if you want to go to my website and subscribe to my newsletter, which is the underdog entrepreneur, which I write every week, sort of I started a company with zero experience. So I kind of considered myself an underdog. So that's where the newsletter name comes from, was trying to help other people, oh my gosh, try to help other people that aren't necessarily that aren't necessarily feel like they're experts, building companies. And that's just at Casey holiday.com. And you can also find out about my coaching and how I help CEOs and things like that, that

Trevor: 1:16:16

to solid. Appreciate it. Thanks so much. What was a lot of fun. Well, thank you, man. We appreciate it. We appreciate your time. We appreciate all the listeners. You know, please please go and rate and subscribe. Let us know how you feel about the podcast. The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, we want to hear it. And we will see you guys next week. Thank you so much for listening to the unstoppable Marketer Podcast. Please go rate and subscribe the podcast whether it's good or bad, we want to hear from you. Because we always want to make this podcast better. If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback. Please go follow me and get in touch with me. I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and Tiktok thank you and we will see you next week.