The most underrated marketing channel that most people don't talk about is friends and family...
Listen as Mark and Trevor discuss how to build a brand/product that gets other people talking about it to their friends and family. They also dive deep into what marketing channels most brands should be spending their money on.
In a world where everyone feels like they need to be diversifying their marketing spend and channel management. The dudes feel different... There are really only a couple channels everyone should be focused on..
Tune in and see what they are!
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
The most underrated marketing channel that most people don't talk about is friends and family...
Listen as Mark and Trevor discuss how to build a brand/product that gets other people talking about it to their friends and family. They also dive deep into what marketing channels most brands should be spending their money on.
In a world where everyone feels like they need to be diversifying their marketing spend and channel management. The dudes feel different... There are really only a couple channels everyone should be focused on..
Tune in and see what they are!
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
Yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the unstoppable marketer podcast. With me, as always, is. You know who you guessed it Mark Goldheart. What's up? You're always on your phone every time I introduce you.
Speaker 2:I'm a busy man yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, got you. Got people to See in places to be got people to talk to.
Speaker 2:No, that's not true. It's usually something work related.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cuz.
Speaker 2:I'm terrible at texting back actually.
Speaker 1:I'm no good at texting back either. No, I actually have never noticed that until we just recently. Hey, if you are listening to this, we're on YouTube now.
Speaker 2:Oh, we are yeah.
Speaker 1:Nice, we have been sure we have been. Yeah, you should get our numbers up. Dude, I should go.
Speaker 2:Come on Help me out here, subscribe tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Um, we are on YouTube, so if you want to watch this, if you're like, hey, these guys sound all right, I want to watch it, there's. So I've been watching our. So, like when I like when we get our podcast edited, I don't listen to them anymore. I like I watch them and I'm like I touch my nose a lot Every time Mark is on his phone in the very beginning. But it's funny because, like, we're so used to just like it's it's mostly it's just audio, so people like we can do whatever we want and we can like. But I'm like I've been a little bit more self-conscious about, like, where I might itch myself during the podcast or where I might yeah, I kind of forget that you know my picking my nose potentially.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I should have shaved my neared, maybe you got the yeah.
Speaker 1:You got you got the yeah good.
Speaker 3:Well, and you just got the. Did you get that?
Speaker 1:crack your going as well. That's big hold up. Oh One, there's one. Yeah, I got one natural.
Speaker 2:Who needs a?
Speaker 1:chiropractor.
Speaker 2:I just Except. It's probably not good to do that. I'm sure there's some reason not to. Yeah, that's Folklore, all right. Well, so we got a freshen up our appearance, yeah so yeah, we gotta worry about our looks a little bit more Okay.
Speaker 1:So order that teeth. I have some good. I guess I'm good. Good. A little email got sent to me last night. I was just Mining my own business and your grandma gave you some feedback.
Speaker 1:I wish she did. Speaking of speaking of my grandma. So for those of you who have been listening long enough, you hopefully know this by now that my grandma is, I think, our number one fan and I saw her on, so it was maybe like three or four episodes ago. I Cannot remember how she got brought up, but she got brought up outside of just like. Oh, my grandma said this. That's right.
Speaker 2:Do you remember?
Speaker 1:like yeah like there was almost like a a bit that we did about my grandma.
Speaker 2:It's about her opening up a store.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah and for her painting.
Speaker 1:She came up to me on a Sunday dinner and she was like I was just walking and I heard you guys talking about quilting. I was like what, no quilting. And then I heard my name and she was like almost in tears, like thought it was just the nicest, sweetest thing. And then my grandpa came up to me afterwards. He's like you just made your grandma's year. That was just like the sweetest thing you could ever die. So now we're doing this again. So hopefully she is she gonna make us some cookies. Now I mean, I'm not saying anything negative about my grandma's cookies, but I don't know if she's ever been. I can't. I don't recall her as somebody who's been like a.
Speaker 2:She's not known for her cookies, okay.
Speaker 1:I'm sure she's got great cookies. You know makes the brownies, but she's got to have some kind of grandma treat. I'm trying to think Snicker doodles.
Speaker 2:Banana bread.
Speaker 1:I know this is probably. I'm sure she does, but I can't think of what it, what it is, and that's no knock on her, that's more of a knock on my memory, but Well you know she'll hear this, so now she's gonna yeah, she'll have to let me know, but anyways, anyways, okay, no, I did. I get a message from my grandma. I got an email saying my cyber truck is here. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So I here I well. No, it's here for me to order, it's on the production line. So I, a Year and a half ago, whenever it was announced that you could pre-order a cyber truck, I did it.
Speaker 2:It was a twenty five dollar deposit.
Speaker 1:No, it's a high thing was a hundred dollars or hundred fifty dollars like that. Okay, and I got my email so it's ready to go. And then I watched the live event yesterday. Did you watch it?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Do you watch any of?
Speaker 2:it. No, I saw clips of it. I figured that kind of showed what I needed to see.
Speaker 1:Did you see the clip of the Him race, that race in the Porsche? Yeah, I did. It's not awesome, it's pretty cool. Talmud, did you see this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I saw that I was nuts beating a.
Speaker 2:Porsche 911 while towing. While towing a Porsche 911.
Speaker 1:I thought that was great, so that's not I'm excited, but I don't I'm actually. What I am disappointed in is two things I Was way impressed with, like the capabilities of it. Yeah right, like all it is capable. It's the. It's the toughest truck out there. They say, well, what, what, what they showed? Yeah right?
Speaker 2:Is it physically tough, emotionally tough? Physically yeah yeah, mentally tough.
Speaker 1:That's a great question. I don't know, but anyways, we'll find out. Yeah, what I am disappointed in is One the pricing is significantly higher than they said it was gonna be, but everybody's kind of talked about that what is it. So your like for a real world rear wheel drive, no bells and whistles. You're at 60 both. Yeah, your will yeah right, and originally it was gonna be more like 45, like that's what they had like sold like the bottom was gonna be like 45 and the top was gonna Be like 75.
Speaker 1:So how much for all wheels or I mean have a four-wheel low, yeah, yeah the four wheel, kind of like you know, does it have a rear differential locker on it option, or I don't know what I mean. That means, so I don't know the answer. Do you know Talmud? Anyways, that one at the next model, the next one up, is like 80.
Speaker 1:Okay and then this they call the cyber beast, I believe is like 98 or 100 or something like that. Okay, and that just has a little bit more Toeing capacity. I think. Okay, that one. But so pricing was a little bit like okay, okay, number one and number two was they had they had really pitched this. It's gonna be a five, like it's gonna go 500 miles, like that's how long it'll be able to go. Yeah, there's no way, but the stock is like 340.
Speaker 1:Now you can buy it, you can buy a, you can buy a Like an add-on and it says it gets up to 470. Okay but if any of you own a Tesla which I recently became a Tesla owner in the last three months yeah, 300 miles does not equal 300 miles in the Tesla world. It's like a.
Speaker 2:It's like 220, oh yeah so, yeah, that makes sense, though I mean, every car says their MPG is X amount, and usually it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it feels like a little bit less feels like even a little bit a little bit jipped with the Tesla.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm being honest, I really like it, but other than that, so, so now I think, like 340 miles with a truck, and if you're actually gonna use it like a truck, how towing, like what is it a hundred miles that you're gonna get? Probably, like I'm thinking to myself, you know, because I go to, like we go to, we're a boating family, we love to go boating and you care those massive boats, who's gonna use it? How am I gonna? How could I tow Outside of going to a lake that's like maybe 20, 30 minutes away? And even then Like, especially here in Utah, like if you're going to a lake here in Utah that's 30, 40 minutes away, you're going into Park City area, right, summit County.
Speaker 1:Yes, you gotta go up the canyon up the canyon, yeah, or like we go to Lake Powell, which is this five and a half hour drive, you know that's probably.
Speaker 2:That's probably why you're disappointed in the range. I bet the Tesla range. I wonder do they calculate it based off of like flat a Flat driving terrain is like you get 300 miles if you're driving flat the whole time. That's a good question. Are they tested on inclines?
Speaker 1:Well, like when they, when they say, like, what does that mean when it's 330 miles or whatever, I don't know the answer that what is cool about the Tesla is now, with their newest software update, if you it would like so, if I type in oh, I'm heading up to, I'm heading, you know, gps, put something in GPS, it will, like, it will track the terrain and it will track the wind. So, like, if, like, you're gonna be going into the wind and it will calculate how many, how many miles, and how much your battery it's gonna take off. Wow, not just like distance. Oh, you're heading 50 miles. Therefore, it's, it's gonna be 50 miles off it might say like 75 because, whether's bad or whatever, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:That's gonna happen. That sounds really cool, but like pretty useless. Well, yes and no it depends on how far you drive. Yeah, I mean it's, it's for most people that it probably just is cool, but they're still going home and charging it after like 150 miles or or or.
Speaker 1:So there's like a lot of people and once again I'm still I'm still a newbie in this world when that is nice is like if you're somebody who's not always like plugging there's in and charging it. So, for example, like If I drive mine because I don't drive far if I drive mine and it I've got like 40, 50 miles off of it, I'm not always just plugging it and charging it. You know, like sometimes I don't start charging until it hits a certain thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, I just don't like have a need to, so if you happen to do that. But then you're like, oh, I got to drive up like an hour and a half to see a client or whatever. Then you're then you're like, oh crap, I can't do that because the weather's bad, so that's where it could get. Yeah, you know, but what are your thoughts on? What are your thoughts on the Tesla truck? Didn't you buy one too? I?
Speaker 2:Put it positive, but I'm not gonna, you're not gonna. I'm not gonna take no, no, I'm actually downgrading in my life. I'm going to know Electronic capabilities. I'm starting to worry that maybe one day the government can just turn your car off. Not me, not you, not me, gas, only gas, only key. I have a key now to turn my ignition on. Key started, ignition only Brilliant walkie-talkies walkie-talkies ham radio. Yeah, yeah, smart yeah. No way I won't be stopped.
Speaker 1:It won't get you Me, that won't stop your life at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when they fake the alien invasion and turn our cars off. Well, what about a? I'm out of here.
Speaker 1:What about? I mean because I'm thinking I'm I'm gonna get one, but I think I might just turn around and sell it. Do you think there's pot? Do you think there's potential there? You don't think you're gonna make any money?
Speaker 2:I Don't know, people are dumb, so maybe I Think so. I mean, first-generation software is just always a little tricky. I mean I'm not gonna get one, strictly speaking, because it's a first-generation and I don't really trust it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd rather just go buy a Y or something and you can buy mine and call it good, because those have been around for a while. Like you know what you're gonna get out of it. Like the cyber truck looks really cool, but I would actually want to use it like a truck, yeah, so Then I'm just using it as a car.
Speaker 1:You don't have a need for a truck.
Speaker 2:No, well, I do, but I'd like, I'd want a truck.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like electric vehicles are not capable of doing what trucks and SUVs do right now.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think you're wrong.
Speaker 2:I mean sure for a hundred miles they can. There you go. Hey, that's sounds pretty cool until you like try to do something Fair enough. So that I mean, that's all I'm saying. No, I think it's cool. I hope people, I think it's great that there's early adopters out there that are gonna go spend their money on it. But you're not that guy. Yeah, same thing with, like, the COVID shot. You know, I waited a couple rounds. Yeah let other people do the first gen.
Speaker 1:See, see, if other people get messed up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, see if their eyes burst out or anything.
Speaker 1:Speaking of okay, speaking of Tesla, even Elon Musk, was it when one was that it was a deal summit, the New York Times deal summit? Yeah do you hear what he's in the news for right now? Sure did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for everyone to go F themselves.
Speaker 1:Yes, the guy I can't remember the dude's name is that's interviewing him, but he's pretty much asking him right, like he's like and I'm not. I'm not reviewing this for you, because I know I'm reviewing that's for people who are listening. All right, yeah, so I'm not patronizing you here. Yeah please so he's at this deal summit, which is Deal summit. Do you know what deal summit is? Can you describe what it is?
Speaker 2:Some lame event by New York Times probably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where they talk about big mergers and acquisitions and business things.
Speaker 2:I've never something.
Speaker 1:If you're really into stocks, probably never ever watched more than a Minute and a half of it, and it was yesterday when I watched Elon Musk's clip that I'm talking about. So, but anyways, this guy's trying to put him in a hole because Elon Musk has gotten himself into trouble as he does, for I think it was something anti-semitic that he got in trouble With Twitter, where he said something that Allegedly, allegedly, yes, whatever, so anyways.
Speaker 2:Well, he said something it's up to the public domain to Interpret, to decide if he was being anti-semitic or not.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay.
Speaker 1:So we're not getting into that piece of it right, but that's what he's got in hot water for. So a lot of really big brands have pulled away from advertising on X aka Twitter although a lot hadn't been, anyways sure. Disney being one of them, yep. And this guy says, hey, what do you say? Like he's kind of almost trying to get him to like admit he was wrong, apologized, etc. Etc. And Elon Musk's take was hold on, you're gonna, you're gonna blackmail me into advertising, you're gonna blackmail me with money. Go after yourself.
Speaker 2:Like, don't advertise With us and then he pointed out that Bob Iger was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he said hey, bob, or something like that, referring to the CEO of Disney, disney, so. But then he also explained like hey, the reason why I'm not worried about this is because X is such a beloved tool by the masses. What pays for X is Advertising dollars, or big chunk of it, I guess. Right, that's their revenue.
Speaker 2:No, that is what pays for it.
Speaker 1:All right, there's my said. The big chunk is because you got the people who buy the verified now that you know the individual layman right and however much that's bringing them, I don't know yeah but it would die without advertising, sure exactly, and he's like they won't, like they're gonna be the ones that are gonna be known to kill one of the biggest Social media platforms. It's like they won't do it.
Speaker 2:Well then he pointed out that those people would end up boycotting the companies that boycotted Twitter. Yeah to which, if I remember right, the guy said are you so you're saying that these people would do that? And he said yes, look at Disney. People are boycotting Disney already yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting, interesting. He did have a line in there that was also really interesting where he said Companies are more worried about the being perceived as good than actually doing good. I Think his, his actual quote on paraphrasing was they're more concerned about looking good While doing evil.
Speaker 2:Yes, he did say something like that and that was while he was explaining that Tesla has actually done more for the planet than any Company on earth, right, right, because of their electric vehicles and solar panels or whatever. Yes, so yeah, you know we're not gonna get political here About about what to think or anything, but I think it's interesting to think about this from the lens of a marketer and just business.
Speaker 2:Yep so the first thing that was interesting to me was Tesla has never advertised and yet they have grown to be. I think he said they sell three times more or four times more than every other EV combined. I Don't know. Was the stat? Was the stat, if I remember right? Okay, and Without advertising, which is pretty incredible they don't advertise at all. No.
Speaker 2:Still no zero out of Tesla has never advertised, never, I didn't know that. Yeah, pretty wild right. I believe, I believe it, you know. So that's part of why I think he can have that kind of attitude, as he's built companies that Haven't been dependent on advertising, but Twitter is a different be. So time will tell if that works out in his favor or not. But Going to Tesla and, and their biggest channel is is essentially Customer referrals, right, customers and then customer referrals would probably be the biggest channel, or just hey, I saw it, I saw it in the real world and now I want it.
Speaker 2:Yes, which then became more of a oh, and now I'm seeing it on TV. It's cool and everyone's just talking about how cool they are because it's such a great product, correct? So their biggest channel is what most people would deem as other.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, they're attributed.
Speaker 2:Channel their attributed channels other yes, or friends, family and so, yeah, I Think what happens with marketers is sometimes we get we get so caught up in in all the big channels that we have to pay attention to meta Pinterest, not Pinterest, that's a tick tock, google, google that we forget that, like it's not. It's the actual product that's going to be living and breathing out in the real world, yes, that real people are going to be using and that matters a lot.
Speaker 2:Yes and so how do you plan in your marketing funnel to sell the people and then have other people see it right, get customer referrals, friends and family and grow the other channel? And we bring this up because we do consulting and we see a lot of businesses who their top channel is other and so sometimes a business will say, oh well, our top channel is other friends and family. So like, why are we spending money and where should they spend money?
Speaker 2:Yeah hey, I'm spending money in Pinterest. Whoa, is that a bug? What is that? That's hair? Is that hair in my eye?
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't see anything. Oh yeah, just one of my hair, that's a lot.
Speaker 1:That's definitely one of my hairs. Is that one of yours? That's one of my. Where does that come from? My kids call my hair, by the way, my kids don't Buzz Lightyear, no, they call them sticklets, sticklets, little sticklets. I have sticklets. So, dad, you don't have hair, you have sticklets, sticklets, yeah. And then when my kid my like five year old, she'll draw me and this is gonna like, depending on who's listening to our podcast, you might not know anything, but you remember Doug Funny, no Cartoon. Doug Doug Funny. Yeah, his name was Doug Funny. You're too young. You're too young for that.
Speaker 2:Oh, the cartoon Doug Doug yeah, his name was Doug Funny. I didn't know that His last name was Funny. Yeah, I never watched it, but I know what it is.
Speaker 1:Well, he was like he was kind of like a. He was kind of like Caillou, bald and just like a little. Just like that's how they draw me, I look like Doug, was that a Disney channel? Doug, it was either Disney or Nickelodeon. Yeah, I can't remember, sorry, go on. I grew up without cable, so yeah. You had hair in your eye when you were saying something about referrals. Other Other. Oh yeah, people are saying should we spend money? Should we spend money Money, Pinterest, Google, whatever, yeah, where should we?
Speaker 2:spend it Like we need to grow our top funnel or we need to grow our bottom of the funnel, and so I think a good topic is where should you actually be spending money? If you have a very strong other or friend family channel, and the conclusion I think we've come to over the last while is it's more evidence to actually keep spending and throttling down on middle of the funnel and bottom of the funnel initiative is because your top funnel becomes people referring it.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So you create a flywheel effect, right? So, instead of trying to do everything, just stick to a few things that you're good at.
Speaker 1:Yes, Well, we always tell people the concept here that Mark's talking about is the more you sell, the more you sell.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, if your product's good. If it's not, then you might be in trouble.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly. I mean, I guess we could break this down into two different things, right? We're having two topics, which is one is how do you get your other attributed channel to be as high as in the top three?
Speaker 2:And it's really simple. Yep, it's that you have a good product.
Speaker 1:And then how do you get your? And then what do you do when that happens? What channels do you mess with right? So which direction should we take?
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Speaker 2:do you want to talk? Well, I think we go with what channels?
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk the other one first, because you just kind of said how do you do it? It's simple.
Speaker 2:It's pretty simple. Yeah, we don't even have to go into it. We'll say it you have to have a good product.
Speaker 1:Ok, I think you're right there, but I also think there's maybe one more.
Speaker 2:Oh, you have to have an exceptional product.
Speaker 1:Well, no, 100%. Yes, a good product, but I also think a really really so, because this is how, going back to Tesla. Great product.
Speaker 2:They had a great product that was innovative, and now early models Teslas weren't spectacular in terms of longevity and everything else, but they were spectacular in their features and they was new. It felt cool. And so what Tesla did is they started out making like sportssters. So let's just make this thing as fast and as cool as possible, yes, and then once we make a cool product that these rich people will talk about and buy, then we can start then going down into more upper middle class price ranges. Sure, so they were talked about. They made a great product that was talked about. That was couldn't be achieved by everyone at the time, but now their prices are pretty reasonable Most people sure, not most people, but when we're talking reasonable, you can get it into a Tesla.
Speaker 1:You get like a Model 3 that's used for 36K or less.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but a brand new one you can get for 36, I think, is the base. Yeah, that's what I got mine for, I think. So the point being is they did it just by having great products that were innovative. Ok, yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, so you've got great products and then you have good products. So I think you can still do this with just a good product and a good product with a great brand. That's what I'm saying. That's the second thing is the good brand slash community Right, and I think there's a lot of people out there who will say something like, for example, android's feature to feature are better than an Apple iPhone, and actually more of the population uses an Android phone.
Speaker 2:I think that's the Earth's population Right, not necessarily the United States. I'm quite positive in the United.
Speaker 1:States, the iPhone is the winner. Look that up actually, because somebody's arguing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, somebody said 70%, but that's in the world.
Speaker 1:Was that somebody who was trying to slam me for a post? Yeah, so in any ways nonetheless. But Apple's got an amazing brand right, so you could say, hey, toe to toe, feature wise, an Apple versus Android, android's going to win. I don't know, I've never had one before and I never will.
Speaker 2:But but I would gladly take one for $100,000.
Speaker 1:Debatable yeah.
Speaker 2:I would We'll see. It's not debatable.
Speaker 1:I would you have to listen to it, you wouldn't you have to listen to the last episode to understand what we're talking about Talmud. Just a fact checker.
Speaker 3:What do we got so? In the United States, 58% of people use iPhones, 42% use Android.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where's that? Who's that user that was trying to knock me? We're going to call him out here.
Speaker 2:Well in the world, I'm pretty sure it is 70%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what did this person say? What is this person? Should we call him out? Oh yeah, Is it rude to call a username out?
Speaker 3:In the world, it is 3.5 billion users for Android and 1.3 billion users for iOS.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he was right. On the world front who talks world metrics?
Speaker 3:Anyways, not me.
Speaker 1:Nor me. Anyways, like good brand, yeah, a good brand can also do that. So those are your two things. A quote that we use I use all the time. I don't know if you always use it, but I say it all the time on this podcast. My favorite quote from any guest we've ever had on the podcast was a gentleman named Chris Hall who is one of the, I think, the head of marketing for Bruce Bolton baseball batting gloves and he said behind every good marketer is a better product. True, and this is what you're talking about, right? Yeah, so if you have a good product, if your top three responses to the channel somebody's coming in from is friends and family, other referral, whatever, you're a hot spot.
Speaker 2:You got a good product. Got a great product.
Speaker 1:Or a great brand and or a great brand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so now, what do you do, please? Too many companies start out with Google and Facebook, meta, yes, and now they decide they'll hit a certain point where they think they need to start going quote diversifying. Like I need to go omnichannel, I need to get in TV, I need to get in a Pinterest, I need to get in all these channels, I need to get in TikTok, I need to get into every channel possible, because I'm going to lose out if I don't, when the evidence that we have seen does not suggest that you should do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, listen, ok, I can always. It's funny because whenever we talk about these things that we see brands now doing, it's funny because when I was a CMO, I was doing these things too. We got to go yeah. So when I was a CMO back in 2018, it was like that was the year the pay-to-play model hit Right, so it was May having the algorithm changed.
Speaker 1:Organics yes, yeah so this was back when, like you were getting revenue from just a post, like you put you just like, like, taking a picture of, like you know, a girl wearing a backpack and she looked pretty and she was in front of a waterfall and it sold $100,000 of bags that day, or something like that. You know, it was those days and I really I legitimately remembered looking well, I got close, I legitimately remembered looking like April oh man, we're crushing it. And then may hit, and all of a sudden our revenue was like way, way, way, way down. I'm like what the freak is going on and I'm looking at our paid channels and everything is like Right. And then I jumped into Google Analytics and looked at our referral channel on Instagram down 80%.
Speaker 1:Or more, and I was like I don't even know what to do, right, like so, um, why was I saying this?
Speaker 2:Oh, I was saying because then you, instead of just focusing on what was going well, yeah, so there was there was going to Pinterest, let's go in.
Speaker 1:The theory was yeah, you have to diversify because you never know what these channels, what algorithm update could wreck you. So it was like Do good in Instagram, go do good in Pinterest. Go do good with influencers, go do you know. So you it was. It was the narrative was diversified, diversified, diversified so you don't get caught with your pants down when yeah. Meta or Instagram or whatever comes at you with a with a change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when really the strategy should be Own your audience, right exactly.
Speaker 2:Get email subscribers, get people committed to you as a brand, and if you do that, then when these changes happen, you can weather the storm, because it the storm always settles down a little bit, yes, but you can always weather a storm if you have a committed audience and a list, absolutely, that you can contact without having to pay An arm and a leg, but but nonetheless, yeah, so a lot of brands get caught up in this idea and then I think people get spread out across different channels thinking, oh well, it's like, you know, pinterest is kind of the same as Instagram and this is no knock on Pinterest either. I think Pinterest is a great channel for certain companies and certain demographics, if that's who you're trying to tell it it can operate really well for some people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I mean, it's still a successful company, which means that there's ad spend and it's working or working yeah but when you're a small company, you got to just do what's working and and double down on what's working.
Speaker 3:Can you get a simple?
Speaker 2:like you, just wanted to say what works. Let's double down on what works until it doesn't work. Let's define small company.
Speaker 1:I I would try to find.
Speaker 2:Anyone under ten million dollars shouldn't even think about diversifying. I would agree with that. I.
Speaker 1:Would agree with that email SMS meta. Google Like this pretty much all you need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and you'll see that all the time. I mean, I think there was a conversation out there on Twitter not too long ago about man. You know, I know this company, that's nine figures and they did it off of just Google and meta. Well, I think, I didn't even like use a Google analytics. Yeah, they didn't even use any attribution software, it was just Literally.
Speaker 1:Facebook. When I spent more money here, I made more money, so I keep putting more, and that was all they did.
Speaker 1:I think it was Moise Ali who is One of the founders of native. Yeah, so for those of you who don't know that native is that ridiculously expensive. Deodorant, deodorant, Shampooes oh they do. Shampoos no, yeah, we spend money with them because my wife cares about Organic things like that and what we put on our body. So we are those people who spend a ridiculous amount. Of the deodorant I'm wearing right now cost me fifteen dollars.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just don't wear deodorant.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. You just, you just wear layers. So it keeps the stention yeah, smart, I just shower. You just shower every time you get home. I just shower once a day. Do you really not wear deodorant? Are you being serious? No, I don't Really. Yeah, I've never really smelled you.
Speaker 2:No one has, I Don't stink.
Speaker 1:My wife is the same way. She probably so embarrassed about this. But my wife is like she's like I just don't sweat there. I don't like I never, ever stink. She goes through one thing of deodorant like a year. She's like from time to time like I'll wear it.
Speaker 2:If I'm going out, I'll put a little deodorant, some cologne on, but that's about it.
Speaker 1:Like what do you mean when you're going out like a date, are you out, right? Now here no okay, going out with your wife. Yeah, okay, got it. Yeah, I wish I stink man like I could not do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's in your diet. You just got to figure out what your body doesn't like.
Speaker 1:I Don't know if that's true. I feel like I have a really decent diet, but I'm I'm afraid of three things now. Everyone knows. I don't, I don't wear deodorant.
Speaker 2:I'm afraid of three things.
Speaker 1:I'm afraid of BO. You're afraid of it. Yeah, having BO, having a booger, okay, and I'm not as much anymore now that I'm bald but I was always afraid of dandruff. Did you get dandruff? No, never.
Speaker 3:Never, ever. But I was always afraid of it.
Speaker 1:So I always, like my whole entire like high school life I had head and shoulders. I just always shampooed with him shoulders to to avoid it. It's probably why you went bald. So, anyways, oh, what did you? Hope we talked about when to put your money. Yeah, oh, boys, ali, native, expensive. Okay, I think I saw a tweet from him saying 25 million.
Speaker 1:Like, if you're under 25 million, don't worry about it. Like, these are your channels and that's. There's probably a lot of truth to that. I will say this like there and there's some caveats to this too right, there are some businesses that are built for Pinterest. That's true, there are some businesses. What Mark and I have found, as we've consulted with people, is if you have the ability to create, like, if you're, if you can create good native short form content and you can and you've built a presence on tiktok, then tiktok works really really well. Like that could be that channel or one of those channels. If you're not organically present on tiktok or you don't have a problem solution product that blows up, then it's not. Like, if you're under 10 million, like, I Don't think you mess with it.
Speaker 2:Personally, unless you're outsourcing it, and you can outsource it.
Speaker 1:What do you mean?
Speaker 2:so if you can outsource it to a company that creates that kind of content, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. What I just mean is content works if your channel.
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly is that so? I mean, if you, if you, if you're organically getting people to your channel, whether it's you or not, or Other people are talking about you, a lot like I know that Zook relief guy that we had on. He's got a problem solution product and People are posting about him all the time.
Speaker 2:And yeah, and he does a great job of obviously promoting that in an organic way.
Speaker 1:Yes, so somebody like him? Facebook and tiktok are probably the two channels. Yeah, I bet he's not doing anything with Google, maybe that's tricky too, because it's medical technically.
Speaker 2:So Google would be tricky, yeah. So again, yeah, of course there's caveats out there. We're just saying in general, you can scale with Google and Facebook yeah and you don't have to diversify all that much. Yeah, now again, maybe you have a wizard and there's some. There's some things at play here when you have someone who's so good at media buying and creating content that you can't diversify, but that's generally not where most people are at well, and if you're in that situation, you're probably growing over to that $10 million mark too.
Speaker 1:You probably are right.
Speaker 2:If you're finding a way to hit organically, then You're gonna grow and and again, going back to the original point. The reason why we're talking about this is because Meta yes, there's some. There's some top funnel plays in meta, as well as Google. Because of YouTube yes, so you can still start getting into top funnel plays within these two channels.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know, maybe you're trying to test other optimization events around or different kind of funnels, whatever you're doing, but these are gonna tend to veer towards what's called middle of the funnel or bottom of the funnel. So people who are ready to purchase your product or kind of in research or almost sure.
Speaker 2:And if you get those people, then guess what? If you have a great product, then more people will see your product and they will talk about your product, yeah, and then you will grow, and so then you will push them over into the other channel.
Speaker 1:What about referral programs?
Speaker 2:So not worth it. I'm sorry, I'd never seen it work, have you?
Speaker 1:No, never. There are some companies, though, that I would assume it works with. So, like Delta, like like Delta. I think that, like I am strictly a Delta member because of Not necessarily because of the referral stuff, no, I was gonna say it's not the points that I like, you like the points, but how often have you actually cashed in a referral.
Speaker 1:Actually, in my early days I did maybe three or four times Okay yeah, because you get like 40,000 miles, which is like a lot. I mean that could be like two, two tickets to Hawaii, depending on the time of year, you know right. So I did that a couple times, cashed in on that, okay, everyone sign up for the Delta Sky Mile board.
Speaker 1:But also reward, like loyalty programs. To be fair, are both referral and what I'm talking about. That's true Generally so, but I think that in travel that's really the only place I've seen referral and loyalty programs To the up to the eye look like they work. I don't know. I've never seen them provide an actual lift to a company that we've, yes, worked with, or which is companies from one million a year to Mid.
Speaker 2:eight figures a year. Sure, I've never seen a referral program actually pull its weight at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, agree as well. That's a hot take because a lot of people want it to be. You want it because, every.
Speaker 2:So that what happens is, you see that. You See, oh, people like us because it prints a family yeah let's put more gas on that fire and and let's really cap that out. And so then you go get a referral program or loyalty program or whatever it is, and a 3000 bucks a month for the service and then it just never.
Speaker 1:And then six months later you look at the data and you're like it's not grown.
Speaker 2:No, but of course you haven't grown because you have to get new people. Yeah, and you get new people by acquiring new customers through meta and Google and most people in these referral programs like they're weak too.
Speaker 1:You want a referral program that'll work Potent I mean, and even then it's probably not even gonna work that much. But it's like, hey, you know, we've been wearing these standard issue slacker pants and we love them, right. But it's like, hey, if you can get marked to buy these and I'll send you a free pair, maybe, maybe that could work.
Speaker 2:The problem? This is the problem. There is a reason. Okay, here's my hot take. This is why referral programs don't work. There's a reason why salespeople are the highest paid employees at organizations. It's because sales is hard and a referral program is essentially telling people to go sell for you.
Speaker 2:You're so over your sales 99% of people won't do that, because 99% of people aren't good salesmen and they don't want to sell right, so that's why it doesn't work. Yeah, it feels ML me. There's a reason why sales people get paid so much. Should we have?
Speaker 1:Yopo sponsor this.
Speaker 2:Well, they do reviews too. Social proof does matter?
Speaker 1:well, probably because they've realized that their loyalty program wasn't working. So let's just start with reviews. No, they think they bought it, did they? Yeah, it was to. It was they bought? Yop, yopo Either Yopo was was loyalty, and then they bought. They merged with something. That's true. I can't remember what it is happened in 2018, but I would love to hear if somebody listen, yopo podcast and has actually seen a referral program work.
Speaker 2:Yes, that, and again, when I say program, like a sass that you're paying for, not if, or I'd love to hear if you guys do something organically, like you put a coupon in with a signed no we will have you on the podcast as a guest.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'd love to hear about it. If you have figured this out and when we say figured it out, we mean that when you implemented it, you saw revenue and net new customer acquisition grow.
Speaker 2:Yes, right Like you got to have proof that it's happened, because we don't see it Never, and and I think that's a pretty easy way to explain it right selling is hard, even if you like something.
Speaker 1:Well and and usually like what works best in the friends and family right, that's the, that attribution channel. It's very rarely me Coming to you and being like mark, you have to go try these pants or you got to go test this restaurant. It's, it's more you being like have you ever eaten anywhere, anywhere good like I love this place.
Speaker 2:Oh, you got to go try Joe sushi shack see and I think maybe that's the other psychological issue with with loyalty programs and referral programs is, once you incentivize someone to do it, it's no longer, it's no longer natural for them like you ruined it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like because now in the back of their mind is like oh, I can get this, which ruins the entire conversation for some people well, not only that, but the other thing is I I heard this somewhere because I don't think I made this up, but I've been saying this a lot. I just don't think I'm clever enough to make this up, but I think I heard somebody say I just can't remember who said it or what. I think I heard somebody say People don't share good things. They share what makes them look good, and so, like sharing about a credit like an American Express credit card doesn't make you look good, mm-hmm, sharing about pants don't doesn't make you look good. Sharing a new artist that you found Makes you look a little good.
Speaker 2:But it, but sharing if there's no incentive attached, though I think you still feel good about it, because you're like hey, I love these pants, but you're there's no incentive. You're doing out of the goodness of your heart, yeah, but when you're trying to bribe people to go do it for you, it now becomes a sales pitch, yeah, but once again you're.
Speaker 1:you're generally not with those pants going out and telling the world. You're generally saying it more so, like if you're, if you happen to be talking about clothes, even if they don't ask you, like you're not just gonna come to me like dude, I Just bought these pants. I mean maybe, unless they're, I mean if they're the most amazing things that have ever happened to you.
Speaker 2:I have with these pants.
Speaker 1:I have with these pants actually too, but most of the time you're not doing that. No, it's gonna be a conversation that has to be stirred and spurred, yeah, so.
Speaker 2:So yeah, referral programs, but the DME would love to hear that someone's good at it. I'd love to hear what at the Trevor Crump.
Speaker 1:Prove us wrong. Come on the podcast. We would love to have you, we would. Yeah, come here to Utah, we'll get you an ollie pop. Sponsors of the unstoppable marketer podcast Wish, just kidding, they haven't. They haven't DM me back yet Come on guys.
Speaker 2:I bet I could get Guayaki to sponsor us. They're nice. I'm not a.
Speaker 1:I don't even know what that is. Oh, the Monte company. That's right, come on, I'm a year, but my take I sure about yeah, did I derail us yeah, we're done.
Speaker 1:This is it. That's it, okay. Well, there you go. So what was the lesson? The lesson is have a good product, have a good product and or a good brand, yes, and if you do that, like you solve. Yeah, that is a good point. This is the point. And on, so many people think that the marketing channels, what's gonna like win for you. Even they think it is Facebook or Google, even if it is one of those two. But like, if, once again, if you don't have a good product, then you just need other people talking about you organically.
Speaker 2:And it's a good thing you brought up the brand, because we do actually, because we've consulted with people where we have jumped into their business and they actually do have a great product, but their brand has been so misaligned with their product and why people keep buying it that ads don't work because everything you're putting out there is misaligned with the experience. Yeah, and so Hone in on what people love about you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why people buy from you?
Speaker 2:right, hone in on your brand and if you do that, then you can start putting the gas on the fire of Advertising. Yeah, and if you do have that again Right, friend for friend, family and other traffic coming through, if you want to grow it, you can't. You can't grow it by growing it, because that is a derivative. Yeah, yeah, you have to think about it that way, in my opinion, like you can't earn a more derivative from derivative, like you have to actually Buy more stock.
Speaker 1:Yes, your stock would be the customer acquisition with meta man, if only there was a tool that could help you track Referrals. This is an attribution channel Only, if only well, GA.
Speaker 2:Yeah, who knows, maybe bestie to you, that's what.
Speaker 1:I was jokingly referring to. Me too, maybe would better if we didn't say it, just cut it out, all right, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning into the unstoppable marketer podcast. We'll see you guys next week, next Tuesday, and check us out on YouTube see what you think.
Speaker 1:All right, see you. Thank you so much for listening to the unstoppable marketer podcast. Please go rate and subscribe the podcast, whether it's good or bad. We want to hear from you because we always want to make this podcast better. If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback, please go follow me and get in touch with me. I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and Tik Tok. Thank you, and we will see you next week. You.