Is marketing ethical? Or is it all propaganda?
Pull up a chair and join us as we navigate the moral labyrinth of digital marketing, where the dance of truth in advertising often leads to a tango with skepticism. We dive into the psyche of social media and influencers, dissecting how marketing tactics can both forge and fracture trust. Reflecting on our boutique agency's philosophy, we share insights on how anchoring in honesty can cultivate enduring client relationships in a world teetering on disbelief.
But it's not all serious business; there's a hearty dose of laughter as we exchange locker-room tales and cold plunge conquests. We balance the scale by contemplating responsibility in an age where digital presence is ubiquitous, and marketing ethics can sometimes be as murky as winter's chilliest waters. Tune in for this blend of humor, reflection, and candid conversation, where we strip down to the bare truths of life, both in the sauna and beyond.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
Is marketing ethical? Or is it all propaganda?
Pull up a chair and join us as we navigate the moral labyrinth of digital marketing, where the dance of truth in advertising often leads to a tango with skepticism. We dive into the psyche of social media and influencers, dissecting how marketing tactics can both forge and fracture trust. Reflecting on our boutique agency's philosophy, we share insights on how anchoring in honesty can cultivate enduring client relationships in a world teetering on disbelief.
But it's not all serious business; there's a hearty dose of laughter as we exchange locker-room tales and cold plunge conquests. We balance the scale by contemplating responsibility in an age where digital presence is ubiquitous, and marketing ethics can sometimes be as murky as winter's chilliest waters. Tune in for this blend of humor, reflection, and candid conversation, where we strip down to the bare truths of life, both in the sauna and beyond.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the unstoppable marketer podcast. With me, as always, on his phone is Mark Goltart, my lovely girl yes, how are you?
Speaker 2:good, how are you?
Speaker 1:gonna get a clip of me introducing and you just on your phone every every time I'm gonna get a clip of it, but you're not anymore no, I'm not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I just put it over here just listening.
Speaker 1:I just put it away. How are you? I'm doing great doing great and the holidays?
Speaker 2:no, okay, not really, but you know, I just show up your wife gets ready for the holidays. On your she is all in on the holidays.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm all in on the holidays too. But my wife is the one who does like she's. She gets the, the presence, she does, the shopping. She, she does she now she now like I think even this year, she just like decorated the tree like we used to have, like a tradition of us she's like you know, kids are in school and she just wanted it up so she did it.
Speaker 1:My wife is like very, not quite one track mind, but like the moment she just like when she decides she gets something in her brain she's like, hey, we got to figure this out now yeah like right now, you know. So if it's like, hey, I want Christmas set up, interest, christmas gets set up. So I don't think like last, maybe two, christmas is I put an ornament on our tree, I've lifted our kid up to put the star on the tree, nice, that's.
Speaker 2:That's what I did this year but my kids like to steal my beanie. They put my beanie as the star of the tree nice, that's awesome yeah those two little gremlins. I love it little steel things and throw them, and they started like throwing clothes in the tree the other day yeah, we have our company Christmas party we did.
Speaker 1:I plan that, you did plan that yeah. I did not. Reservation for dinner. That's about it reservation.
Speaker 2:That was a lot of planning, though no, it wasn't actually it was a phone call phone call.
Speaker 1:Actually, it wasn't even phone. No, it was a phone call because it was over and also we had to order the rib yeah, yeah, the, the steak, steak, yeah. Pre-order. I did do that, so those two phone calls for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look at that. Good job, that was great. But no, I, I'm feeling great today. I went to the sauna, nice, went to the gym, I should say they have a sauna, did a 40 minute session in the sauna, nice, which I think is kind of long.
Speaker 1:I think I don't know, but I mean that sounds like a long time for me. Yeah, like that would be rough. I like saunas, but that would be rough to sit in for 40 minutes. Personally it's. It's not too bad. Do you like stretch in there and stuff like get a stretch on, or are you just sitting there.
Speaker 2:I just sit there in your thoughts. Just sit there in my thoughts, yeah no, no device in there no device. No, okay, you're just an adult, that's not your phones, nothing you don't get that as a dad.
Speaker 1:No, like just pure thoughts.
Speaker 2:No, that's why it's great. Yeah, it's, it's a great time. But the older I get, I now understand a little bit more of why, like the old guys, when you're young in the gym just like stroll into the sauna naked oh yeah. I get it, yeah, because our generation still wearing like gym shorts and stuff in the sauna and I'm sitting there in my gym shorts.
Speaker 1:I'm like this sucks, I just want to be in a towel, you know yeah, I'd say our gym, ours is like between, like wearing wearing a swimsuit or gym shorts or a towel. Never naked, ever, though. No, never, never, never. Would we do that? No?
Speaker 2:but as a kid man I remember going to gyms and those, those old guys were walking around and you're like a kid going to the zoo. I mean, like what are we looking?
Speaker 1:at boomers right, would you probably say. Boomers and above try to think, yeah, maybe, maybe most confident human beings naked, yeah they don't care, they're just strolling around millennials and Gen Z, and we are not comfortable naked, but the fun but, we will walk in like they own the place yeah, they know.
Speaker 2:No shame, zero shame which is ironic because society is, I would say, more sexualized. Now, yes, in terms of like media totally portrayals yeah, more quote, supposedly quote, more body positive yeah but yet people younger generations are so scared yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It's funny, though it's interesting think about why that happened. Yeah, it's really funny. Yeah, I like the funniest guy about the old guys in the sauna is that they would earn the just in a lock room. In general, right, they would stroll around naked with flip flops but like also just have the towel over the shoulder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's like you've got the towel, but it's over the shoulder and they'll like stop and have full conversations with you mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:I remember, like as a kid and even as like, even as an adult, like I started, there was like this you know, jim, as a kid that I used to go to and I remember, as I got older I would like I went from like all knowing all my friends like dads, to seeing all my friends, dads, naked because they, we all, went to the same gym and and I just like you know, I got your dad naked today and he's like, oh cool, great.
Speaker 1:You know, I also remember like when I was a kid, my parents used to drop us off.
Speaker 1:There was like this, right, it was like it was like a gym, but a rec center, you know, had the pool, had the gym, had the steam, had the sauna, had the basketball courts and the racquetball courts, and it was like in the summer, you know, my parents would take three or four, my friends drop us off at like 10 am and then somebody would pick us up at like five and we'd literally just be there all day and we'd swim and then we'd sauna and we play basketball, then we go play racquetball, then we swim and then we'd hot. I mean you just like go back and forth from pool to pool, you know, and we, my buddies and I, we this is like one of my buddies memories of a steam room, my buddies and I how old are you? I mean we were 12 maybe, okay, yeah, yeah, I can't imagine much younger than that. For my parents to just drop us off all day, even 12 sounds insane never know about the different time.
Speaker 2:It's a different time.
Speaker 1:I would never do that with my kids nowadays, but not as much to worry about. I guess back in the 90s or maybe there was you just didn't have the media that told you yeah, my two boys were 12 14.
Speaker 2:I'd drop them off 14's different.
Speaker 1:12 maybe I don't have a 10 year old right now is my oldest, I don't know if it was my two boys, I would be less worried.
Speaker 1:Both of them together, yeah yeah, so anyways, they drop us off and my buddies and we're super rambunctious. We're always getting people who like workers, who be like hey, if the calm down, you can't run locker rooms, blah, blah, blah. And we must have been playing tag or hide and seek or something like that. And I went you're 12 playing hide and seek, are you sure? Yeah, yeah, man why, not, that's not crazy.
Speaker 1:Think about it, my like 10 year old, who's almost 11, like they play those games hide and seek. Yeah, at 12 tag hide and seek. But like hide and seek becomes different. It's like it's like hide and seek is very, very, very kiddish, but then you start to have, like, maybe more love like the, the gamification of hide and seek. That's kind of like how it's like okay, how it starts to be anyways, whatever, be on the story, we're playing some sort of game where we're trying to find each other. And I went in the steam room and I went up on the like.
Speaker 1:You know, there there's always like benches like levels, and the higher you get, the hotter it gets. And so I got up to the very top in the corner, like they're not gonna see me. You know, and usually when you walk into a steam room like you can't, depending on how steamy it is like you'll see an image. You know, you'll see a silhouette of somebody, but you cannot see that. You know, I wouldn't know. That's mark per se, you know, and and he must have saw me go in that area and I go in there, my buddy busts in and he's like dude, I know you're in here and you know how. There's always a hose in the steam room, you know, to cool yourself down, he grabs the hose, turns it on. And when I had got in, there was an. There was another dude, like a naked and naked dude, but naked dude. I'm in this corner, he's in this corner on the opposite side. He had a newspaper with him.
Speaker 1:I don't know how he's reading the steam room but he's reading a newspaper magazine and my buddy gets the hose and just starts drenching the guy because he's thinking it's me and he just starts spraying this naked, probably 60 year old dude ruins his cold water, ruins the newspaper and the guy's like you mother ever seen. He just like but but naked chases us out, dude this guy is getting chased by a naked guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're all wet in our swimsuit, so we're like sliding around the floor like trying to get away from this guy, and he, almost as a naked human being, ran out into the pool area. Like he stopped the moment he got to like that pool door, like out of it a step and then like probably recognize what was going on, my was and it's like that's one of my funniest, funniest memories, dude, of this sauna steam cuz, that's great it was awesome whoo, that is a good one but speaking of sauna.
Speaker 1:So are you gonna become the type of guy who's gonna now get a $3,000 cold plunge and post about cold plunges and so on.
Speaker 2:Is not that?
Speaker 1:there's anything wrong with that no, okay, I just can't.
Speaker 2:How do you? I live in Utah, we live in Utah. How do you justify paying that much for a cold plunge, like you can just fill up a cattle troughed with water in your backyard and just sit in it yes, I can answer this question or just go buy a used. I'm a locker like a like what are they? What are they called?
Speaker 1:not a stand-up freezer, but the locker cell freezers, deep freeze freezer just go buy one of those and fill it up with water.
Speaker 2:Well, let me let me when that costs 300 bucks.
Speaker 1:Let me educate you, if I could, sure man.
Speaker 2:I mean you can, if you are so for a couple, a couple reasons.
Speaker 1:My wife decided last year that she wanted the cold plunge okay, and so she bought a portable cold plunge which essentially what you're roughly what you're saying, right, but it was.
Speaker 1:You know, it's more of a like softer material that has poles in it like a tent, and so you can kind of like fold it up and, you know, store it and all that kind of stuff. And we bought it for like a hundred bucks, okay, and it worked great throughout the entirety of the winter, but then if you want to do that in the summer, you're paying three, four bucks every day for ice to do a cold plunge.
Speaker 2:Why? Why would you pay that much?
Speaker 1:for ice, because that's about how much it costs in ice to get it to the temperature it Needs to be to make it effective. I Refuse to believe that. I know that as a fact.
Speaker 2:We did it. Where are you buying the ice gas station? Why would you not? Why would you not just fill up a bucket of water and freeze it?
Speaker 1:I guess it depends on how big you're. Like we. We don't have that kind of space for freezers, like in our freezer, so I guess we could have done that. Yeah, so I should do so you could. You could do that if you've got the space for it, but you'd need, like those like ice cream, big ice cream tub.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like a two gallon, three gallons worth of ice.
Speaker 1:you would do it, yeah, so you could definitely do that, so none the less, so nonetheless, like it's, it's there's. There is, I think, some inconvenience To that. So that's one, that's one of the many.
Speaker 2:Now that's one of three filling up a bucket and putting it in the freezer. I mean assuming you have space.
Speaker 1:That's one of three reasons. Okay, the second reason, for those of you who don't know this about me I am a pool master. I Know the chemicals of pools, I have a pool. This is something I've gotten very into, okay, and water.
Speaker 2:Is that a term? Pool master? Are you self-anointing right now? I don't like what is this.
Speaker 1:Possibly. I don't know the answer. We'll get our fact check over here. Who's gonna check things out for us?
Speaker 1:I am a pool master when it comes to chemicals and pH levels and okay, etc, etc. And Cold plunge water gets extremely disgusting and In the summer it's not that crazy to fill and you know to like change it, but in the winter that can be. You open yourself up to a lot of risk when you turn on those hose bibs in Utah and Potentially having your pipes freeze if you don't Correctly remove them every time you do it, which could end up being significantly more damage. Wise, yeah, then Just buying a cold punch. We don't have one, by the way, we haven't spent the $3,000 on one, but but again it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It still doesn't answer my point. You can get a freezer.
Speaker 3:That's under bucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you water filter for a big fish tank for probably 300 bucks and you're there.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's all you need. Yeah, maybe it's the water filter. I haven't thought about anything like that. I don't know where you put it and Water filters.
Speaker 3:Also Pull master. That term doesn't exist. The closest thing would be a swimming pool service technician.
Speaker 1:I'm assuming for service technician.
Speaker 2:Another when he when he the poo me moment Swimming pool with service technician.
Speaker 1:No, I am a pool master. What was I gonna say? That that is funny. Well, I've done, though is I now because this is even easier. I don't know if has the exact same effect, but ever since we had Brett Curry on member Brett, yeah, the. Youtube OMG commerce. Youtube marketing agency, if you're interested.
Speaker 2:I was gonna start throwing master at the end of yeah, he's the Google, he's the YouTube. Master, master.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um agency master. He said cold showers just do the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, I've heard that. I've heard in terms of just the effect, and I've also heard it doesn't actually have to be that cold.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like 52 degrees it's not nearly as cold as I thought yeah, 52 degrees, or it's 52, 55 or something like that, which still feels I mean that's not pleasant.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's not 37 degrees.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but 52 degrees is so much different than 50, 30 degrees and 30 degrees is so much different than 10. I I thought that, like once it was cold, it just was cold.
Speaker 3:But it's crazy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's, but now speak but that's what I do every day. I do a cold shower, so I'll do like when I'm washing my parts, I'm in hot water, okay, and then I for two minutes straight Cold, straight cold. Yep, as as ice cold as it will go. I haven't checked the temperature, though.
Speaker 2:Have you checked your IQ? Has it gone up?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a lot smarter as a pool master.
Speaker 2:As a pool coming up with new names for pool service technicians, so yeah, yeah, I think, uh, sauna's, I mean, look, these are all things that have been around for a while. I've actually put a little thought, probably too much thought, in ice, ice baths and cold water and all the benefits of it, and I think, well, you know, I mean, if we're, if we're talking about like human evolution, the only water sources were generally cold, right, so like if you wanted to take a bath, you were in a river.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess, unless you were like the Atlantic Ocean area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. Yeah, the ocean is kind of warm, I guess on the Atlantic side.
Speaker 1:I don't know what it was like in, like the 1600s Gulf sides, atlantic sides.
Speaker 2:But generally you're gonna be in cold water, Naturally yeah so it makes sense that there was some kind of symbiotic relationship there. Is it good for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, not to mention all the hard minerals that come out of hot water, and just you know if you don't have soft water. Yeah hard water is bad for you. Yeah, hot water just blasting your skin, drying it out. It makes sense. Makes sense why your body would react positively to cold water. But why is it that everything that's good for you is unpleasant? Have you ever thought about that?
Speaker 1:Uh, I actually think about this often.
Speaker 2:Why.
Speaker 1:Uh, I think about it, because why would?
Speaker 2:evolution not make the things that are good for you pleasant, why would you not enjoy them more?
Speaker 1:Um, I could get. I could get potentially religious With my response. Well, don't, I don't, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:What's your opinion? Why does everything suck? Um, it's true, right, it feels good after, but there's always suffering before the reward.
Speaker 1:Well, you could have this like, hey, without suffering. You don't have the Like, you can't. One can't exist without the other.
Speaker 2:First of all, yeah maybe right, maybe, perhaps that is a universal law but secondly, the reason why.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't have the reason why, but the reason why I'm thinking about it all the time is because I'm experiencing this with my kids right now, which is, um, for example, my son doesn't want to practice sports Because he's not good at some sports. You know, when you first start something, you're not good at it. So like, let's say, you're in love with the game of football. The first time somebody picks up a football and tries to run plays or catch a fly, when you're running this way and the ball's, you know like that's hard to do Are there flies Like a fly route.
Speaker 1:Oh you know what I mean. You're a football player. You know what a fly route is.
Speaker 2:I don't think a fly is. I don't think there is a fly route. There is a fly route Is there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, fly route is just straight far. What would you call that? What would they call that in? What you call just a route, where you're just straight? You got posts. You got slants. You got curls. You got a post. You got a fade. You got a fade. What is it? Just a straight? You got a button hook. What is just a straight? I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's a fly a streak a fly.
Speaker 1:A fly route.
Speaker 2:Is it.
Speaker 1:It's a fly route I.
Speaker 2:Maybe they changed the terms when I was.
Speaker 3:I'm actually really nervous now, because I, it's true, fly route pattern run where the receiver runs straight up, still towards the end zone.
Speaker 2:Hmm, that's a fly route fly route or let's go. You can also be called a street crowd Nice Okay it's a tie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a tie. Anyway, you that's. That's one of the harder catches, right.
Speaker 2:Um, no, not really, but yeah, for me it was a fly route.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because oftentimes when you're running straight, if the quarterback, if the quarterback is throwing it, if you're on the right edge and the quarterback is going to throw it, so it's more to your left, it's a lot easier catch Right. But if that ball is going On the right edge and you're going to catch the ball like this, Well, you're talking like if you actually have to turn your head, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I mean. It could be a very, very challenging, so it what I'm trying to say is my son doesn't want to practice and just thinks he should be good and the the. What I'm trying to help him understand is like, hey, is that he's white? Exactly exactly. Things would be different, but no, but what I'm just trying to tell him is like, hey, practicing sucks, but Sports gets really, really fun the moment you start to like things, start to click and you start to connect and you're good at it. It sucks to go play basketball and miss every single shot. It's really fun when you make them. How do you make them? Yeah, do the hard work. It's not. I didn't answer your question I answered. One of your questions was why are you talking about it? Why are you thinking about it?
Speaker 2:But yeah, there's always a risk reward or you have to, you have to actually like work through something.
Speaker 3:Yeah it's just interesting.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Like, if vegetables are so good for you, you'd think they'd taste better. Meat tastes good. That makes sense to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of people say it's not good for you though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're liars though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. They're liars Clean meats.
Speaker 2:Yeah, red meat's great.
Speaker 1:In In certain quantities, but.
Speaker 2:I don't even know if that's true, but in moderation I mean a certain quantities, just because, I don't know, maybe populations really just too big so you can't have that much red meat, just because it's kind of hard to produce it. But I don't know. I think I could be a carnivore. I think I could do the carnivore diet and be fine. I also think I could live off of raw milk.
Speaker 1:So Yuck, like I think.
Speaker 2:I could go a whole week and only have raw milk and just be fine, that'd be disgusting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have some questions for you both, though real quick. You think it's because you were saying that everything that's good is either like unpleasant- or hard, everything that's good for you. Everything that's good for you. Do you think that that's changed over the years though people's tolerance to what's bad and good for them? Like I think about cave people, I don't think that they even knew.
Speaker 2:Like I don't think that anything was necessarily Are we calling them cave people now, not cavemen.
Speaker 1:Well, we have to be inclusive here, okay, so thank you, abby. Yeah, yeah, cave cave.
Speaker 2:I well isn't that, isn't that inclusive, where we're just saying that it was only men that were that dumb to live in caves, right?
Speaker 1:Cave people.
Speaker 3:They just didn't. I don't know. Do you think that they even thought like, oh, this is good for me and it's gonna be awesome Once this is over. Or it was just life?
Speaker 2:No, no, it's absolutely that's just life right. So, yeah, if you, if you look at I mean the stereotypical First world problem, I mean if you go to Africa or if you go to super poor countries in Africa, there's some, there's some pretty modern places in Africa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if anyone in Africa heard me, or yeah? Yeah, if anyone heard me talk about how challenging it is to get two dollars worth of ice for a night, they would be they think I was an absolute Moron, idiot, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean if you go to places that are truly poor in this world, they don't complain about the same things we complain about, like they're just happy to eat sometimes, so they're not complaining that they don't get more ice cream or like that their sweeteners might give them Alzheimer's.
Speaker 1:But, with that said, I do think that they probably like anyone anywhere, no matter what the circumstances, that principle still is true. Right hard things make you better.
Speaker 2:Well, hard things make you better. But yeah, and like, why is it just that? You know, I just want things to be good for me and easy. Scx. That'd be great Hard to get though.
Speaker 1:That's true, that's very true, but you just wish it was easier. Who doesn't guess?
Speaker 2:Oh, some people, yeah, some people yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm changing that on?
Speaker 2:what's that AI is changing. That For people. Unfortunately, weird world, yeah, or fortunately, I don't know whatever. Whatever you're into whatever you're into, I guess so. But speaking about a what are we talking?
Speaker 1:moral ambiguity yeah, that's a good transition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. We are in digital marketing. Something that I've been thinking about is there. There seems to be a little bit of a haughtiness to marketers that oftentimes they think they're a little bit more sophisticated or better than sales people, which is funny because it's like kind of just the same thing, right, just different mediums of Selling, getting someone to buy, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I've seen some, some comments kind of trashing Sales people for doing outbound emails or cold calls, and how dare these people annoy me right. Which is just ironic because you know, as digital marketers were just Using a Brainwashing and hacking techniques to like infiltrate people's minds.
Speaker 1:Yes, to do the same thing. To do the same thing. Yeah, yeah, there's actually sales. People are like technically, maybe more ethical about it. I mean at least you know, what I'm calling to sell you something right now. Will you buy it?
Speaker 2:No, okay, we're not trying to sell you something we're trying to influence your emotional state of being Well, it's like.
Speaker 1:It's like well, yeah, it's like the grocery store, right? Yeah, it's like I need to go buy milk. Most people go to the grocery store to buy milk, so where do you put the milk?
Speaker 2:Yeah, in.
Speaker 1:The very, very back. Why do you put it in the very, very back? To get people to buy Everything else exactly oh I needed gum, oh I needed vegetables, oh I needed rice, oh I needed sugar. Next thing you know, you don't leave with your four dollar gallon of milk, you leave with $54 worth of Stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly so, like is it ethical or is it moral? I don't know. You know I'm not here to sit to make any Solid claims. I just think it's ironic to think about it that way, because sometimes we know that social media can be horrible, especially for the youth, and has some positive things too. Sometimes people are alone and it's easier to socialize online, and so there's some positive, there's some negative. It's like a tool, like any tool.
Speaker 2:Can be used for good and bad, yeah, but sometimes I think about the moral implications of of advertising on digital cigarettes, and what I mean by that is, like you know, it's just these dopamine hits that people get on social media, and Social media is designed to be addicting. That is what it is designed to do. I think we should just be honest about that. Tick-tock is designed to be a digital dopamine casino.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:People stay and they get addicted and we're advertising on there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's such a, it's got such bad. Social media does have such a bad rap and so many bad implications. Obviously we've established that it can do good as well, but for the most part, like you can make an argument around that like social media has made mankind worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just depends on what slant you want to take. Totally, I mean, I don't know if it's made mankind worse. I think it's had. I think it's a lot easier to say it's clearly had negative Impacts on behaviors and youth Totally, which then based off of, like how they report life satisfaction, but social media has been around for so long now that those youth are now becoming adults, adults right, and so that that can has.
Speaker 1:Now I was lucky enough not to really have social media as a youth. Well, I think I phone didn't even exist. I'm my space, it existed.
Speaker 2:Yes, so social media existed Yep quote in quotes but you had to be at a family computer to use it. Yeah, very different than jumping on your phone phone and getting cyber bully, either being the cyber bully or doing things you shouldn't be doing. Yeah, at that age.
Speaker 1:So what's the question?
Speaker 2:here. It's not a question or a specific answer. I think it's an exploration, yep, the question is what are the moral implications or what is the ethical obligation as marketers that we should try to operate underneath? So I and I need a piece, so I I told you. I know I told you I did.
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Speaker 1:So okay, so well, let me first begin this conversation with a comment that my brother-in-law made to me when I first met him before he was my brother-in-law, a brother-in-law who decided to, as he was getting to know me. I was already married into this family. He said what do you do, trevor? What do you want to do? And I think I was in school and I said, well, I'm going into marketing. Maybe I was in marketing.
Speaker 1:And I was like I'm in marketing. And he looked at me like dead straight in the eyes and he's like I hate marketers. And I was like, oh okay, and I just didn't know what to say because I'm like I just told you that that's like, that's like walking up to a girl and being like I hate women. You know, like I see that you're a woman and I'm telling you I hate you. I'm in marketing, I hate marketers, you know. And so I just kind of like shocked, I didn't really say anything, and he's like yeah, I just think marketing is just super unethical and it's all propaganda and I just I think it's bad. And then he left it at that.
Speaker 1:And we and I just didn't really say anything back to him was like, okay, so I have since that like that, that's now a funny thing Like if he were, he doesn't listen to this because he's a doctor and he doesn't care about this kind of stuff. But he's a doctor, well, he's a nurse practitioner, cool. So big pharmaceutical guy, yeah, Big pharmaceutical guy dealing those drugs.
Speaker 1:Anyways, I have since kind of like you know, what is the definition of propaganda versus marketing, versus marketing ethics and what? What I've learned with the internet tells me the worldwide web is propaganda. I think the I think, if I remember it, the definition of propaganda is convincing somebody to do something, based on nonfactual things, so based on untruths. Technically, yeah, if you look up the technical, like Webster, whatever definition, that's what it is when, if you look up the definition, you can type in like ethical marketing. It's kind of like takes that same thing of when you give people information that is true, to influence them. So, in the most simplistic way, To influence them.
Speaker 1:Yes, to influence somebody to act. Okay, to take an action. So to me, that is like the most simplistic way to like break apart, like to talk about ethics versus nonethics. Now, I don't think sales is unethical. I am not the type of person, like what you said, who everybody's like sales is worse than marketing. I don't believe that because I subscribe to the same theory. Perhaps it's a little more confrontational. Yeah, because it's more direct. Yeah, right, where marketing is more like what is inadvertent. Is that the word I'm looking for, you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, or just indirect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, indirect, that's a better word, I guess. So, yeah, it can be direct.
Speaker 2:It can be, depending on the campaign, the style right, like you might not be necessarily trying to sell someone something, but you are trying to influence them towards your brand or your product.
Speaker 1:So how about this? Like so to now that we've kind of established that as like a technical definition of what unethical marketing is versus what ethical marketing is, let's talk like what are your thoughts about influencer marketing? So let me give you a situation. I'm an influencer. Let's say I'm an influencer, right Okay, people think I'm really fashionable.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Really stunning and handsome, right yeah. And a company comes to me and says athletic greens, Greens comes to me and says, hey is your social profile all around pool master, yeah. How do you the at the pool master at the pool master, at the pool master TC.
Speaker 2:It's just videos of you cleaning pools shirtless, shirtless.
Speaker 1:Yes, because, remember, I'm beautiful in this world and I'm very physically fit.
Speaker 2:Scooping up leaves leaves pH. Chemicals in the water.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cleaning up towels. So, anyways, if athletic greens comes to me and says hey, we want you to talk about how healthy this is and what it does for you. But what if I was already healthy and what if I'd already been taking greens? But this company comes to me and pays me $10,000 a month to talk about athletic greens Is that ethical? Because we know, obviously this happens all the time. Yeah, yeah, obviously it happens all the time.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's. I don't know if I'd go as far as saying that it's unethical.
Speaker 1:In the definition term though.
Speaker 2:Well, no, here's the thing. It is unethical. If you were making claims about it to you, making claims about it to yourself. This is how I lost. That's unethical. But if you are saying this is athletic greens and it's great for you Because, because, scientifically speaking, it is, it's good for you.
Speaker 1:It's got the vegetables, it's got the air. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Then no. But if you are saying this is my number one greens that I take every single day when you, when you aren't Now, does the audience know that? No, but clearly there's a. There's a.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Ethical boundary there yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you're seeing this with a lot of people, and I bring up influencers because that to me, like obviously there is a very fine line that if somebody you know puts an ad like if if athletic greens were to put an advertisement out, I don't know why we're picking on. Athletic greens put an advertisement out that says if you take this, you'll lose no, they don't 50 pounds. That would be wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they're just saying here's your 70, I think it's 70 plus essential nutrients. I have no idea which is what they have in there, yeah.
Speaker 1:But the reason why I like to bring up the influencer side of things is because you as a brand oftentimes can lose control over how other people are talking about you. Sure, and, and you see this happening a ton right now, like we were I was just. For example, we have a client right now who is in the beauty skincare world and they have a very big presence on YouTube and tons of people are talking about them and they are paying people to talk about them, which is an advert.
Speaker 2:you know that's an advertising, that's an act of advertisement.
Speaker 1:That's an advertising channel and and I was watching one of their most recent videos and I was reading the comments, right, you know, because I'm a big like, that's the way that oftentimes, mark and I will get good content, good content ideas, good messaging ideas is to see what people are saying, you know, and I couldn't help but to notice how many people were saying things like this is clearly an advertisement. How can we trust that?
Speaker 2:you actually use it yeah.
Speaker 1:You know and you're seeing that a lot more, as every year goes by, you see more and more of that kind of comments. You hear more and more people talking about that.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, that's just part of the many. I mean there's a few factors at play, but that's part of the reason why influencer marketing isn't what it used to be. Yeah, people have caught on to believe and trust and hey, this person is famous. Therefore, what they're saying is true, yeah, and then now they're kind of understanding that maybe just because someone says something, it's not really what they mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In that advertisement? Yeah, yeah. And so what's the difference between manipulating someone and convincing somebody?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't know if I have a good answer for this, because the word manipulation just has a negative connotation to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. However, I'd be lying if I didn't say that from time to time, I embellished a story to manipulate my point, which was a true point. Does that make sense? And I don't think I'm the only person who's done that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so like the means justified the end.
Speaker 1:For the greater good.
Speaker 2:It's a slippery slope that's like the very can be a very slippery origin story of every Marvel villain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it is I just do these evil things.
Speaker 2:It'll be good in the end. Yeah, yeah, thanos. Yeah, you've got to bring balance to the universe. I just got to kill half of them, but the resources will be extended, whatever his whole thing was, yeah, so I don't know.
Speaker 1:I guess I don't know what the actual definite. Are you looking up the definition manipulation? Is that what you got there? No, I know what the definition of manipulation is. Well, I.
Speaker 2:Do know that it's their synonyms and that manipulate has a negative connotation to it. Yeah, but I don't think. I don't think it's truly has a negative definition isn't always negative. Yeah, so.
Speaker 1:It says I think Abby's got it here, good.
Speaker 3:So Used by marketers that prey on human, cognitive, social and memory based biases, ultimately influencing consumer behavior in their favor and and then. An example of this is a clothing store might advertise 50% off, but then in the fine print it says if you buy three items over.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Well, the Oxford definition of manipulate is handle or control in a skillful manner, or to control or influence a person or situation cleverly, unfairly or unscrupulously unscrupulous.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it could be. So it has a. The clever way is the okay, okay way.
Speaker 2:Unfairly Is where things get a little dodgy dodgy, depends on how you define unfair, but we don't have to go down that rabbit hole today. No, but yeah. So so manipulate or convince right? Is a lawyer in a courtroom manipulative or convincing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that were to, I think that were probably. I think that they're the same. I Think that they're probably one in the same word. Yeah, I don't think that it's Manipulate. Convincing just sounds better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, convincing, I think, yeah. It maybe has a connotation that it's based off of conveying something. Truthful, yeah, or manipulative is ambiguous yeah, not necessarily. You can be skillful and truthful or skillful and deceitful.
Speaker 2:Yeah and you're trying to bend it towards your will. Right, but convincing also. Is that so, I think? At the end of the day, though, when you're advertising, when you're advertising, you have to realize that a lot of advertising techniques do Quote, as she said, as Abby said, pray on people's biases, right and psychological behaviors, and so, as you are trying to connect with people, you will naturally be playing into how do you make a connection? We talk about that all the time. You're making connections with people, are you doing it in a way that's ethical? And I think, to sum it up, as long as you are being truthful, then it is because life, you are constantly being manipulated or convinced in life with your time.
Speaker 1:With your time, how do you spend your time?
Speaker 2:even without advertising you, if you're with people and you interact in the human world, you are constantly being manipulated or convinced by other people about what they think. You are being subjected to Right biases around you know peer pressure. Oh, all these people are doing this, but I'm not like maybe I should do this. Yeah, like that just all happens organically and naturally and that's just part of life. So I don't think there's anything ethical to say that using those same things, I don't think it's an ethical question to say like you can't use those same things and actively try to convince people.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think what another good example of this manipulation, right? Because I think the examples are probably the best way for people to if they're, if they're, if you're taking this conversation seriously which way I hope you are like, examples are always good to understand like this kind of difference, I think that there's probably a good fine line which is truthful. I guess, as long as you're being truthful, you're probably okay, right? But one thing that I've seen, have you see it? You saw happen a lot over black Friday. I don't know if you notice this, but if you're on tiktok, you probably saw Video footage of people at Target. I think it was target that this was happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're pulling off the stickers. Yes, and so it's like hey 50% off.
Speaker 1:And it would say a 50% off now you know, 699 rather than 1299. And then they pull that little, like you know, like slides into the metal thing, they pull it and it was always 699, you know, but there's just so much products like that that people aren't really paying attention to it, and that was happening a lot now.
Speaker 2:That's, that's manipulation in the negative way, right in the wrong way, and so and and stores do this all the time, right when they will claim You're getting a discount when you're not. Yep, the price has always been, and 60 bucks, yeah, but they'll have a strikeout price of 80.
Speaker 1:Yep, amazon got in trouble for this over Amazon Prime Day. Do you remember that? No happen happened, I think, in, I Believe Amazon Prime Day was normally in June or July and now they have like two or three a year like, but I think it was this summer that that happened and there was a FTC Like legal case brought up against them.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I recall could be wrong, maybe it's worth us looking up, but I'm pretty sure that that happened because they were doing the same thing, saying strike through prices on this. I was the I can't refuse the Amazon basics line that, so they were doing it with.
Speaker 2:Besides just being a good person, what is the incentive for brands to Stay truthful? Yeah, because guess what, like you, could make arguments. Well, technically I could price this at $80, but I'm gonna just Put it at 60 one thing that I'm learning and I'm glad, and the conversion rates gonna go up Yep, so there's gonna be ways to justify that. So the question is is it what? What's the incentive for a brand to say well, maybe I shouldn't try to find the ambiguity in everything.
Speaker 2:And I should try to be more of a straight shooter, so to speak so I think that truth in In COVID introduced us.
Speaker 1:This is going to be opinions from Trevor right now To a lab originated originated virus.
Speaker 2:Exactly that's what it introduced us to.
Speaker 1:Do I have permission? Do I have permission to get into Trevor opinion and Trevor doctrine here? Do I have your consent?
Speaker 2:What are you getting into?
Speaker 1:I don't know. Well, both of them at the same time. Yeah, what I'm saying here is, I think, back in COVID, with what happened to the media. You had this presidential election and the media started or humane or mankind started to question things that the media, the government, were telling us. I think a lot of people always have. Well, yeah, I mean, but it became more straight, more mainstream, to be like, hey, maybe Fox News and CNN, distrust of the media went to an all time high.
Speaker 2:Exactly Is what.
Speaker 1:I used to be somebody who.
Speaker 2:Which that is certified Pew research.
Speaker 1:Totally. I used to be somebody who, just like I, just I never totally trusted everything that I saw in the media, but I also never thought twice about it too, right, I just, oh, I heard this and cool, you know and now, on the other hand, never trusted and now, on the other, like now, I trust basically nothing. You know, and I'm, you know, and I've probably a lot of people would deem me as a conspiracy theorist, now you know, because I just so. So I think this, I think this open up JFK.
Speaker 1:No one, no one, I don't know. I'm not that deep in a conspiracy theories, not that deep. But what?
Speaker 2:I'm trying to say is did we land on the moon?
Speaker 1:I was a firm believer that we did. You were now not a firm believer that we did.
Speaker 2:Really You're not a firm believer?
Speaker 1:I'm not not a believer, but I used to bug me so much out of buddy named Alex and he would talk about I mean, this is back in like middle school. He's like this is why we haven't. I mean, he was deep into it.
Speaker 3:And I was like you're an idiot.
Speaker 1:That is like, how can you not be American and believe that we landed on the moon? That was like my argument. It's like that's the most American thing to believe in. And now I don't as much I'm very open to the possibilities that did not happen, wow, okay, so back to what I'm saying. Is trust, right, we're talking trust brands. How do we, you know, is it? Is it? Is it important to be trustful and to be more transparent?
Speaker 1:I think that now, the way that communities and brands are building their brand is based on a lot of trust. You know, I think that that could be a. It can be a core principle to hey, you know what you're, for example, athletic greens. You know what? There is a ton of other athletic. There is a ton of other green drinks out there that can get you what you need and you'll be just fine. But this is why you should work with us.
Speaker 1:Like a statement like that is is like almost like wait, you're saying that I can get this other places.
Speaker 1:You know that, like, I actually like these kind of transparent, truthful statements because it opens up a different thought process and it just changes the paradigm of how most brands do talk to you. We're the best and this is why you know one of our, one of like mine and Mark's Mark and I own a marketing agency and one of the like biggest lines. I say anytime we don't bring a ton of clients on. We're not that kind of agency, we're boutique. We only work with specific types of people and specific types of brands in the e-commerce space, but nine times out of 10, anytime I'm talking to one of these brands.
Speaker 1:As I say, there are so many great agencies out there and you can find what we do in a lot of places and and like the moment I say that it's almost like I've never heard an agency owner say that before Like every agency owner talks about how they're the best and it opens up like a whole new dialogue. And when I mean when we, our close rate is well over 85, 90%, because we're just like super, super truthful and transparent. So I like, to me, transparency is can be a key pillar to building a brand in a good way, even though you might be willing to admit that there are other solutions that people can get to solve their problems?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's. Yeah, there's a million solutions, but it's just being honest. Yeah, Well, I think it just goes to. The incentive of being truthful is, if you're trying to build something, you know the you always have to pay the piper eventually, and eventually the debt is due. So if you're being dishonest, people will catch on and know that you're being totally totally like.
Speaker 2:If you're always on discount, you're now a discount brand, yeah, and people view you as such. So if you ever raise your prices, it's not going to go well, so it's always going to catch up to you eventually. So you should always be honest and transparent. And that's not to say you can't use techniques and psychology to better display your message and to advertise to your customers and your audience. But I think as long as you are on the truthful line and your intent is there, then you can make mistakes, right? I'm not saying you're not going to make a mistake along the way, but that's how you do it. If you're being truthful, then I think you can use the science behind human behavior and human buying psychology in your favor.
Speaker 2:I agree, right, it does get a little weird sometimes knowing how much you can convince people convince, not manipulate this time of certain things, or why they should do certain things, or how to connect with them on an emotional level, or how to catch them in an emotional state.
Speaker 1:Totally. I mean, I think you brought this up this is just like to echo. You brought this up, I think it was maybe a couple of podcasts episodes ago which was who this is science back to. I think I'm hoping that if I ask this question right, you're actually going to be able to answer it. I think it's the most susceptible type of person to buy, and when.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I was going to say it's the pregnant moms, or a mom who had just postpartum, just had a baby or is pregnant. But other life events also matter.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:If someone has just moved, if someone has just bought a car, any big life change opens up a whole sea of change for that person. So is it wrong to, which is why buying behavior holiday season, for example, a lot of people go oh, I'm only going to buy one thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to buy. This is my limit, I'm going to go buy this. But what happens is very often people will buy something and the one thing they knew they needed to get, or the gifts that they needed to get but then they're in an emotional state right Of optimism or whatever you want to call it where it's like oh, actually, maybe I can start getting more things. Oh, I needed that. And then they start getting into the habit of saying yes to buying. So the holiday season is a great buying season just because people are in the state of buying. So when we talk about the state of buying, it's really because the emotional state of people, it's not necessarily the sales quote, it's the state in which people are open to saying yes to purchases. Same thing happens in life events or season changes. I mean, some of the best times for brands are when the seasons are changing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because people are open Changing outfits.
Speaker 1:They're changing outfits to yeah, getting into different styles, whatever it might be.
Speaker 1:What I tell a lot of and a really good way for you guys to find this so like. Sometimes it might be challenging to identify. Depending on the brand that you, what you sell, it might be challenging to identify what those, what those emotional changes and state of minds are, to capitalize on them. The motto I started to adopt then this was like either in 2021 or like maybe early 2022 was chasing your conversion rates. So a conversion rate is oftentimes going to be a great indicator that it is a season of change, potentially, or just a buying season, and that's when you can really really double down on your marketing, messaging, your marketing spend, your influencer outreach, your gifting outreach, whatever that might be. So chase those conversion rates and that's how you can kind of capitalize on these moments that are really great opportunities for brands.
Speaker 2:Totally and maybe the next episode we'll go over all of the psychological definitions of human behavior and biases so that you guys can hack the brain and play people like little puppets out there A good conversation led by you, I'll be all right with that. You know, teach people how to be puppeteers.
Speaker 1:Pool master, puppet, master, puppet, master, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Puppet master is a term, it is a thing that is a thing. Marketing master. Marketing master.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Master. Yeah, although never mind, but I like it. Interesting topic. So when you get old, are you going to be a sauna guy?
Speaker 1:Oh, a naked sauna guy, because I like the sauna now, but I just don't have a gym. Because I have a, I'm a at home gym guy.
Speaker 2:You just can be the old guy in the sauna.
Speaker 1:Well, my wife and I are talking about putting a sauna in our house. Saunas are great, so we probably will in the next.
Speaker 2:I think I'll always be at least a towel guy 18 months.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will never.
Speaker 2:I don't know about being a. I mean, could you towel over the shoulder guy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I never will be. I'll never be that guy Never. And if you are Good for you. Good for you. We're not saying anything about it. It might have sounded like we were saying bad things about you, but we were definitely not.
Speaker 3:No, we're envious.
Speaker 1:We're envious of the, of the confidence that you have.
Speaker 2:You are happy that you are proud of your body. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Agreed, all right. All right, let's close Go. Thanks, guys. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for for being a part of this. Please, if you're listening to this right now, if you can hear my words and you got to the end of this episode, please give us feedback on the podcast. We want it. Dm me at the Trevor Crump Say hey, I listened to your podcast. I like it, I don't like it. I listened to it.
Speaker 2:I don't like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm the type of guy who walks around the sauna naked. Let me know. Let me just want to know more about you, know what we can do to make this better. So please feel free to reach out at the Trevor Crump Tick tock Instagram. Now the unstoppable marketer on YouTube. Hey, we got a YouTube channel. We got a YouTube. Have you subscribed yet? Oh boy, subscribers are going up. Get on up there, I will.
Speaker 3:All right I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I want the notification. Linkedin Trevor Crump. Let me know. Go get it, please. All right, we'll see you guys next Tuesday. Thank you so much for listening to the unstoppable marketer podcast. Please go rate and subscribe the podcast, whether it's good or bad. We want to hear from you because we always want to make this podcast better. If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback, please go follow me and get in touch with me. I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and TikTok. Thank you, and we will see you next week.