Imagine kicking off your shoes after a long day and settling in for a chat that feels like hanging out with old friends, but these friends come bearing the secrets to a nine-figure business success. That's the vibe of our latest episode where we sit down with Preston Rutherford, the co-founder of Chubbies and Looper Turns, who takes us on an exhilarating ride from college camaraderie to shaking up the apparel industry. With wit as sharp as their business acumen, we uncover the story behind their phenomenal growth and how they turned a bold idea into a brand that's synonymous with fun.
As we dissect the evolution of the Chubbies brand, you'll feel the pulse of retro style and how mid-thigh shorts came to signify more than just a sartorial choice—it's a culture shift. Delving into the identity that set Chubbies apart, we trade tales on the courage it takes to craft a brand persona that's not just distinct but downright defiant. Join us for an examination of how authenticity and a refusal to take life too seriously became their ultimate differentiator, and perhaps, the secret sauce to their seismic impact on the retail world.
In this meeting of the minds, we tackle the gritty realities of marketing in a pay-to-play digital landscape. From Facebook and Google to the wilds of TikTok, we navigate the treacherous waters of brand loyalty and customer connection. Wrapping up, we send you off with insights that count, strategies to stand your ground in an ever-changing market, and an invitation to continue the conversation. If you're itching for more than just another business blueprint, this episode is your ticket to an adventure in entrepreneurship that proves success and a good laugh can indeed coexist.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
Imagine kicking off your shoes after a long day and settling in for a chat that feels like hanging out with old friends, but these friends come bearing the secrets to a nine-figure business success. That's the vibe of our latest episode where we sit down with Preston Rutherford, the co-founder of Chubbies and Looper Turns, who takes us on an exhilarating ride from college camaraderie to shaking up the apparel industry. With wit as sharp as their business acumen, we uncover the story behind their phenomenal growth and how they turned a bold idea into a brand that's synonymous with fun.
As we dissect the evolution of the Chubbies brand, you'll feel the pulse of retro style and how mid-thigh shorts came to signify more than just a sartorial choice—it's a culture shift. Delving into the identity that set Chubbies apart, we trade tales on the courage it takes to craft a brand persona that's not just distinct but downright defiant. Join us for an examination of how authenticity and a refusal to take life too seriously became their ultimate differentiator, and perhaps, the secret sauce to their seismic impact on the retail world.
In this meeting of the minds, we tackle the gritty realities of marketing in a pay-to-play digital landscape. From Facebook and Google to the wilds of TikTok, we navigate the treacherous waters of brand loyalty and customer connection. Wrapping up, we send you off with insights that count, strategies to stand your ground in an ever-changing market, and an invitation to continue the conversation. If you're itching for more than just another business blueprint, this episode is your ticket to an adventure in entrepreneurship that proves success and a good laugh can indeed coexist.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
Yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer podcast, with me, as always, as my co-host, mark Goldhart. Mark, how are you, sir? I'm wonderful. We're doing a podcast today, a little different, and we are sitting so close to each other. It's a little uncomfortable. It is a little uncomfortable. When I was talking to the camera this way, it wasn't, and then when I turned to you this way, it reminds me of a.
Speaker 2:I don't sit this close to anyone but like my kids and wife, yeah, I'm probably the same way, it reminds me of Seinfeld.
Speaker 1:Do you ever watch Seinfeld episodes?
Speaker 2:I never was in this Seinfeld. I'll just be honest with everyone. That's fine, Well.
Speaker 1:I am like when I work out I put Seinfeld on or something. I just put like a meat, like a mindless show on that I don't have to be looking at but I can just be listening to. And this morning I was just watching the episode where Elaine is dating a guy who's a close talker.
Speaker 1:He'll talk to people like this close and it's just like that's what the whole episode is about and eventually, I think what she ends up breaking up with him for and that's how I feel right now is like you and me are close talkers. It is yeah. For those of you who are looking, you can tell if you're listening. Just imagine Mark and I are just Just elbow to elbow.
Speaker 3:We might as well stop Six inches apart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we might as well be snuggling, right now Like family style in the front of a truck.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, family style in the front of the truck. That's right, the one-seater.
Speaker 2:The one-seater.
Speaker 1:The one row, the bench, the bench, exactly. Well, listen, I want to. Let's introduce our guests. I'm actually so excited to have our guests on today. Today we are, we're blessed to have Preston Rutherford, one of the co-founders of Chubbys and one of the co-founders of Looper Turns on the podcast with us. Preston, how are you dude?
Speaker 3:I'm doing well. Thank you guys for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation, dig into some stuff with you. Maybe there'll be some hot takes, who knows?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we'll get some hot takes for sure.
Speaker 3:Whether it's like Steamy hot takes.
Speaker 1:I mean, Mark gave a hot take just barely, which was I'm not into Seinfeld, so I think that is even Totally like somewhat of a hot take. Are you into Seinfeld? Probably enough.
Speaker 3:My wife's out of town on work. So after I put my two kids down I had me time and I spent three hours watching comedians and cars, getting coffee, and Jerry before Seinfeld, which is one of his more. It's a Netflix comedy special, but it's far less popular. Anyways, yes, short answer, nice, and I went deep last night.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. I'm glad you treated yourself then. Yeah, absolutely, oh man.
Speaker 1:Three hour veg session. That was so good.
Speaker 3:That's so good. My daughter kept getting up and saying dad, you're being too loud because I was just laughing constantly. How old are your kids? I have a six year old daughter named Ryan and a one year old just turned one last week. His name is Rock. I'm sick. His name is Rock, which is kind of pretty cool. Last name's Rutherford. So we're going deep on the.
Speaker 1:Rock Rutherford version. That's a good name. That's like a.
Speaker 2:Rutherford has some prestige. It's got some political prestige to it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, it's a funny name. Yeah, Preston Rutherford. Growing up, everyone called me Preston Rutherford the third because it was just such a ridiculous name.
Speaker 1:Dude, I've got a five year old girl, so I understand that I've got three kids, but I've got a five year old girl so I can relate. She's almost six and they're just like. That's like my funnest age right now. I think it's so fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a blast. It's great.
Speaker 3:One's pretty cool too, because they're sleeping usually a little better by then, sleeping, starting to figure out From Talladega nights I don't know what to do with my hands, Starting to figure out what to do with their hands. So I'll play some music on the Sonos or whatever in the mornings and he's now getting into it and learning the clap. And it's just so cute when he's just kind of like sitting there clapping and starting to do stuff like that. I just love it.
Speaker 1:I love kid life dude. It's so fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's harder being a dad or when you were playing rugby.
Speaker 3:Being a dad being a dad, especially trying to get my daughter to eat dinner, is just. I try every strategy. I'm on YouTube trying to figure this stuff out and she'll eat it, but she'll wait two minutes before it's bedtime to say I'm hungry. And I'm just like man. How do I not micromanage this, but get her to be in a place where she's like okay, I got it, it's dinner time.
Speaker 2:And for our listeners. We made that connection is I played rugby in college in high school and Preston also played some rugby in college over at Stanford.
Speaker 1:And, coincidentally, I have never played rugby. You've never played rugby Ever.
Speaker 2:You're the odd man out.
Speaker 1:I am the odd man out. I enjoy sports. I got a scholarship to play tennis in college and then they killed the program when I was going to go no way. It was the only college that gave me an offer and then they killed it. And then they kept the women's team alive, but they did not keep the men's team alive.
Speaker 2:But I will tell you this I have as many scars from being a father as I do from rugby. At this point, Like emotional scars, physical scars from a scratch Dude, I got a scratch. One of my kids bit a chunk out of my arm when he was like one and a half and I have a giant scar from it.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my kids are just savages, man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's gnarly Well, that's awesome. They're warriors, they really are man.
Speaker 1:They really, really are. Well, yeah, kid life is great.
Speaker 3:I feel like we always can go on to the kids anytime, since we have.
Speaker 1:Yeah we're, we love our family, so that's awesome. Well, dude, tell us a little bit about for the listeners. Let's just get a little origin story here, just just just let's. Let's briefly talk about, like, talk about Chubbys, how that started. I'm sure for those of you who, like, if you don't know who Chubbys is, that's wild, but Chubbys is, you know. You know Chubbys is a, you know, lifestyle apparel brand, essentially right, you might have a better way to say that, and you probably do. Especially, like, that's what it is special. Like, where you guys really got your like you know, feet wet no pun intended was in swimwear, right? Yeah, nicely put. Look at that, all right, sorry, go ahead, talk to us.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, that was perfect. Yeah, Chubbys. Find us at Chubbys or chubbyshortscom. We are the purveyors of all of your weekend apparel needs. No, but you mentioned lifestyle apparel brand AKA tiny shorts salesman on the internet is one of the other things that that we are. But yeah, I mean, that's what Chubbys is. Started back in late 2011. And then, just to fast forward to the end Great nine figure exit in 2021. Part of a 10 figure IPO in 2021. Ginger ads, by the way, part of solar brands.
Speaker 3:Thank you, very fortunate, very blessed, very lucky, and it wasn't obvious that that would be something that would happen at all. So, again, like very, very fortunate and unlucky. And so then, to rewind, yeah, I mean, this was. This was all about four friends from college who felt like we wanted to start a business because we were no good at working for other people and really hated it and thought that, man, let's try to create a business so that we didn't have to work for other people. And so it was more of that. It was also like that's defensive. So like, from the offensive perspective, the opportunity to have freedom, the opportunity to create something that didn't exist, the opportunity to make the world better, solve some problem was also there and none of us were, you know, computer scientists or technical or anything like that, which is kind of like what everyone at Stanford does?
Speaker 1:I was going to say it comes from Stanford, right, exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we were. Whatever political science? I studied urban studies. I don't even know what that is. There were some smarter people that studied economics and math, and I think one of us does actually have a technical engineering degree, but anyways, the point is that we weren't going to start Instagram or Snapchat, with which I can I use light profanity or absolutely you can use whatever profanity you would wish to, as long as you don't care.
Speaker 2:It's public. Yeah, it's public.
Speaker 1:I will let you know. My kids listen to this podcast from time to time, so they'll come. They will come to me and they'll be like dad. You had somebody on your podcast that said the a word and I'm like, all right.
Speaker 3:I will do that. I will chat with them. Do they acknowledge earmuffs? Can you say earmuffs?
Speaker 1:and they will you can say earmuffs and then say it Okay, okay, got it.
Speaker 3:Got it. Okay, I digress so to resume earmuffs. But I shit you, not they. The guys who's the guy who started Instagram and the guy who started Snapchat basically lived right across the street from each other as Stanford, but then also were like effectively right down the street from where, from where we live. So it was like, so, that's like what you do when you start a company and it's like, well, I can't do that. I mean, that's like not in the cards for me. So it was very much like, well, what can we do? One of the four of us actually knew how to make clothes, so that was sort of like the only thing any of us really knew how to do that could be useful in the world. So kind of put us in that direction.
Speaker 2:Now, when you say one of the four knew how to make clothes like literally so.
Speaker 3:Maybe, I mean maybe Rainer knows how to sell. I mean I assume he does. But no, he was, he went through. He was like one of the rising stars in big company apparel brands.
Speaker 2:Okay, cool, he went through the whole so he understood like the entire management training program and production process.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and knew how to run a clothing business, knew about all of this stuff, but still don't really know much about like merchandising and planning and buying and, yes, supply chain. Having gone to China or Vietnam or name your country where there's huge sort of like manufacturing businesses, and just understands that whole world, maybe he sells I mean, he is a Renaissance man, so. So that was that kind of put us in that direction. And then two of us, rainer and Kyle, had actually worked at Abercrombie in college. So there's the Stanford mall which is like this, and so it was like but so this was like the perfect, one of the perfect examples. That sort of to us was like okay, because one of the things that gets you started in a business is right, the status quo sucks. It sucks so much that you feel it viscerally and you're like this, this shall not stand right. This like cannot continue and I can fix it. I have confidence and I know that I can fix it.
Speaker 3:So the Abercrombie example here and the reason I bring it up is just because the vibe in 2011 was extremely different from where it is today. Like 2023, top performing stock beats out, like returns, more of what then in video in 23, massive research, and back then that CEO guy was there. The vibe was just like the worst. Right, the shirtless dudes kind of like holier than now sort of thing. When you walk in there and they've got the spray and their plan is horrible like elevator slash, electronic music, anyways, the vibe was the worst. So then they had, we had this experience. There's like one of us who's kind of like guiding us toward apparel. Talk about rugby and rugby you wear shorter shorts, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do like short shorts and rugby.
Speaker 3:Yeah, two of the other guys played soccer at Stanford, so generally shorter shorts. Rainer, as I mentioned, spent a lot of he jumped around growing up military family but spent a lot of time in the south where generally shorts are shorter and bring all these things together. The other thing I would add right is that at the time this was when Shopify was like just becoming a thing. It's so crazy to think about now, but not too long before we started the business, it would have cost round numbers like a million dollars and six months to just get a shopping cart online where you could, you know it's so crazy products show a collection page and facilitate transactions and pass data to a, you know, a WMS or warehouse management system.
Speaker 3:It's crazy. So there was a massive like structural tail end as well that just kind of like dramatically reduce the barrier to entry to just sell something online. And then the obvious of social media becoming a thing, but again less obvious. What 1213 years ago?
Speaker 3:So, so, anyways that was the, you know, cacophony, the, the, the stew, if you will. They kind of came together to make it sort of seem like, okay, this is what we're going to do and we're going to try to make it fun because that's sort of like what we like. You know, we're not going to be serious because that was the vibe at the time and men's fashion, right, I mean, if you remember, 2011. You had, you had like the Ed Hardy's of the world, like the style of, just like this weird vibe of like and again I'm getting like super product focused, but like massively long cargo shorts and these like really tight shirts and all this stuff and blazing on it. It was very much, in our opinion, a vibe of this like standoffish, take yourself seriously, to cool for you, and so we were like that sucks, that's just like. That shouldn't exist.
Speaker 1:So can I be the opposite of that.
Speaker 1:Can I pause for a second? I just want to say, I want to call something out, just because I think this is a cool learning lesson in your like this origin story here, and you'd said something like you know, the status quo started to suck, and this happens a lot of times where you know whether it's a status quo and fashion or what, what have you. Those are the best times when you start to feel like, when you start to feel that the status quo sucks and you may not be the most eccentric person in the world, that's like some of the best times to start businesses, because you know that, as a pretty ordinary individual, there are going to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions and millions of other people who feel the exact same way as you, but nobody's willing to do anything about it, and so there's that's when. That's when there's such great opportunity, and so I love that.
Speaker 1:Like this is where the direction is going, because I identify with this crazy, because I felt the same way in 2011. Like that, that time, you know, like Abacrame was huge for me in high school. I graduated in 2006 and I even started to get. I started to get out of the Abacrame like where, probably like my junior year, I started. So in 2005 I actually started to get over it, you know.
Speaker 3:And and so I love that that.
Speaker 1:That's kind of like what jump started, this idea of like hey, there's a great opportunity here, yeah it also is a great example that entrepreneurs overthink it.
Speaker 2:They overthink like you have to capture a trend and you have to do all these like anal analytics and research to figure out what the trends are. To capture it. Yeah, and most of the trends are just sitting right there in your gut. You'll know like you can feel the trend because we all grew up like. If you want to analyze this trend, you go back to the 90s and 2000s, right? Millennials grew up with longer shorts because the NBA right, like the rise of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, like the fab five at Michigan, right everyone was wearing longer shorts.
Speaker 2:Everyone was into that. So, like everyone was insecure, and I grew up in a track family, so I I grew out of the insecurity of like long shorts pretty quick, because my older brothers were wearing, like you know, basically running around and, and so what happens, though, is this trend. People grew up with these long shorts, but once they tried mid thigh shorts, it's like why did I? Everywhere long shorts? Yeah, it's so uncomfortable, like I hate playing sports in them, I hate running in them, like it's the worst, totally. And nobody understood that as millennials, because everyone just grew up with long shorts. And so what Preston saying here is he just kind of jumped into the rugby world and college he wore shorter shorts. They're looking around and it's like dude, there's nothing out there like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you mix that with, like shorter shorts was a trend in the 80s, yeah right. And so you like mix that with this kind of like. I feel like it's a 15 to 20 year old. Exactly, it's like you always have this like 15 to 20 years.
Speaker 3:So that's the. That's a perfect segue in the story to, yes, retro. So this notion of bringing something back that we felt was just missing, right? I mean, I think we're similarly aged, so like our dad. There are so many awesome pictures of our dads on the honeymoon or whatever like on trips back in the 80s where they just looked awesome, yeah, with the shorter short, the longer socks, those type like the Nike Cortez is like this whole chain was just to my dad has a picture?
Speaker 2:in a raised Jeep Wrangler like this souped up Jeep Wrangler with like a super charger and a pink shirt and sunglasses like that's the stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like our dad's all pictures like that. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's, that's a, that's a very kind of like relatable and kind of like the aspirational thing that we felt was we felt it. We felt it was missing in, you know, in the world, in the culture, whatever. So we were just kind of like huh, because this was what, like 2011. So just think 2001,. You just had this like global financial crisis. There was all of this stress. You know, I couldn't find a job at a Stanford right and you would think, oh crap, you could have this awesome college. You can't find a job, and maybe I'm dumb.
Speaker 1:What happens when you graduate studies? Did you know?
Speaker 3:exactly exactly when you choose like a major, like yeah, underwater basket weaving or whatever the term would be, but I mean, it was hard, it was hard to find out, it was very stressful right At this time. There was a lot of you know, what are you going to do with your life? Stuff, or like leading up to it, it was just like boom, everything's up into the right. So there was that too. There was like this notion of stress and insecurity and weight on your shoulders and like maybe like even diminished hope in the future, sort of things like. So there were all.
Speaker 3:There were all of these things like the macro, the status quo, our love of retro, and then maybe like the tie to sports, where we thought and felt that there was this like growing groundswell of short, of shorts, you know, becoming a thing being objectively better than what was currently, you know, the leading products. You put all that together, together, excuse me, and that kind of led us to kind of like get the thing started and and then then we just kind of started, you know, making some product and we failed at first because we put sort of like what was it? Like 3k a piece in, and and then the person who we, you know, gave money to to make us some samples just like vanished and then we got to a good start to be for that story from so many people like that is not an uncommon thing, especially like I think it's less common now, as manufacturing has become a lot more accessible, but yeah, like if you were manufacturing pre 2016.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you hear that story a lot.
Speaker 3:Oh man, it's so funny. So then you know we had to try again, but it was just like huh, that's you know when we didn't have money.
Speaker 3:So it was like further into the red, but I guess let's try it again. And then that worked out and made, made some product, made some samples and you know then got to a place where and again a few old, but back in 2011. And then we had to try again. You know, venmo. There was no like square cash or Apple pay. It was, but the square card reader had just come out so we could take credit cards. So we started selling in person.
Speaker 3:You know, we started like running around San Francisco, which is where we were all based, just doing our normal weekend thing, because a lot of you know Sanford's in the Bay Area. So a lot of us went up San Francisco. We would just like do the normal weekend thing, go to the park, throw the frisbee, go to brunch, and then we had to have a mimosa and but we had this friend group which was like a huge core to the chubby's culture in general, which is just like everyone's welcome, we're all friends, we're having a great time in person. We are not standoffish, but the vibe that we all have and share is like magnetic you know yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's just like those special things that I think we've all seen in life where it's like, oh, either from the outside oh man, that's awesome or when you're part of it, you're just like, oh, that's the best, this is the best. Yeah, I love going on, whether it be like my guide trips or, you know, name your thing that that became. Can I, can I say something with that?
Speaker 1:dude like that became a really incredible part of I believe your guys is marketing ethos to and your brand ethos, because I remember this Not that I think chubby's came out the exact same time as have you heard of the it's more of a golf apparel brand called Travis Matthew. You're the Travis Matthew before, totally, I mean they're yeah, they're amazing, yeah. So Travis Matthew had a very similar vibe from a, from a big, just group of guys getting together and experiencing things together. And I think what, if I remember what happened to with Travis Matthew, I think some dad, like I'm going to misstep here, but I'm just going to say it anyways, but I'm putting a precursor in there. So if anybody wants to fact check me, that's fine. But if I remember right, one of the founders, dads, had money and pretty much just like, bought a bus, funded and he said go out and just tour, go to golf clubs, go play, be in our clothes, go drink, go have a good time and and just, and and they and they pretty much just videoed and photography, photography, did photography around everything that they were doing.
Speaker 1:And so at the time they had released this like new. It was very similar to you, right, like golf, the golf world was golf polos, it was, nike, it was, you know, yeah, ashworth, kind of just like basic stuff and then they start to create a little bit more simple, you know, create a little bit more like flashy you know, flashy like party vibes of golf, which was huge, and it was the experience and I remember because I had started golf brand in 2016.
Speaker 1:I remember I was like trying to. I was trying to, you know, with our brand and our marketing, like we have to find a way to do this and I love that that's what you guys did with chubby. So I think that you know sorry I keep interrupting you, but I just think there's these lessons within this founder story that, like, we have to call out, because that was such a massive piece of what you did to your brand is. It was just like it wasn't just you. You identified this opportunity in the market of what people wanted but nobody was willing to say, but you also added this aspirational piece to it where people are like, oh my gosh, they're having fun. I could see myself doing that with the boys, et cetera, et cetera, and it just made it. It was like gasoline dude, it was awesome to watch.
Speaker 3:I think so. No, I appreciate that and I wrote this post once. This, and I don't like it was click baby. But the first line was like no MBA in the right mind would have started chubbies. And all I mean by that is simply that, to your point, it wasn't like this super structured top down meta analysis of every apparel category and like the market penetration and the competitive landscape of each. You know, it was none of that.
Speaker 1:The tan was ex-wise me. I mean, we had to, yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean we had to back into some of that when we started trying to figure out how to raise money, because you just you need a tan number and it needs to have a billion behind it, but before that it was no. I mean, it's just like this is something we would like as humans and it doesn't really exist. And so let's just try to make it and let's just make some stuff for our friends. And that was the extent of because we were still working. You know, we were working full time jobs and so this was like nights and weekends, so it was just like this would seem cool. So work with our friends who knows.
Speaker 1:So what? What? So you started, everything's going good. You're selling it out of your backpacks. Essentially, it sounds like people are buying it, obviously giving you guys some like you know, like you said you hadn't done any backend numbers, but you're like people are buying it. Therefore, it must be. You know something. What happened in the business? What was the turning point in the business where you're like this is a business and let's do this for reals, like what was that moment?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it was. I mean it was starting to go online on Shopify. You know we did a lot of. It was effectively like a drop business, if that makes sense. So like we didn't have persistent inventory, so we would just do pre-sales. And so we'd get a bunch of emails and we'd like orient around a date and that then became kind of like you know, very shareable thing and and then, you know, send out the email, drop the product, it would sell out. Or, yeah, it would sell out even though it's a pre-sale right, because we didn't necessarily have the cash to create all the inventory even though we were doing a pre-sale. Like there are just some real constraints. Yep, like Kickstarter-y.
Speaker 3:So that was a way where it was just sort of like, hey, we're bringing in cash, yeah, and it seems like something. We started to get a little bit of inventory, but we also missed some pre-sale delivery dates, which was also like, oh man, that's the worst Totally, especially with us very seasonal. These may not have been the American flag shorts, but I think there was still something that was like around the date that if you missed that date, the value of the short to the customer goes in.
Speaker 3:So that was also huge where we were just like oh darn. But to your question, I think it was just a series of things, like you know. You just start to feel more traction. But dollars-wise we, I think, had a run rate of somewhere around two, two and a half million annual before we quit our jobs and started diving in full-time. So there were just numbers there and that was something that like. I think the big misconception about entrepreneurs right is that they're so risk-taking, and I think Jeff Bezos has some quotes of just like no, it's kind of like the opposite. It's just sort of like you just mitigate the hell out of risks but the upside is so compelling that that's why you do it. And I think that's sort of not the day that we were Jeff Bezos level, but it was very much like let's just see if there's a thing. And then we dove in.
Speaker 2:Amazing and so well. This is 2011. When I first heard of Chubbys was probably 2017, right, 2017, 2018 is when I, as a consumer, recognized and saw Chubbys as an actual brand. So I think a lot of people would even be surprised to know that you guys started in 2011. They might see you as a 2016, 17, 18 brand.
Speaker 3:I think it may be like formal launch early 2012,. But you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And my question is because Instagram was always so serious right, it was like the curated shots. Men's brands were all serious. You guys started out with the fun vibe and you kept the fun vibe going. Did you ever have a conscious moment of saying, hey, this differentiates us, or did you just keep doing what you like to do?
Speaker 3:Good question? No, I think, because at the time there were no real copycats, which became a thing for sure. But at the beginning it was all about, let's just be, the opposite of the status quo. So fundamental differentiation, top to bottom, how we came across in every way product, but then also all of the marketing, all of the content, everything we did, the photography, how we took photos, how we did photo shoots, what our box looked like, Just like. Every detail was just like okay, this sucks, can be better, let's do that. So yeah, I think that was sort of like the foundation of what we did. And I think one note is that that's relatively obvious to a certain extent, like when you're starting a company, let's just be different, right, we have to differentiate, we gotta bring unique value to the market. You would think it would be more obvious than it is.
Speaker 2:It's very true. I think it's an obvious thought but most brands, I think, quickly regressed to a status quo to try to copycat or they need like oh.
Speaker 1:These guys have put so much time and effort in their favor.
Speaker 2:In this app, they start looking at competitors all the time, so why would we do something different?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I love about this I gotta call this out because it's been brought up a couple of last podcast episodes but one thing that we brought and I think it was maybe you who brought this up but every good brand finds an enemy, and if you think about that, with not just like like brand brands, like a Chabis, but even like personal brands, right, like when you can find an enemy, that enemy can become a common enemy, right, and so I love that. That's what you guys had done. You know, to kind of like piggyback off the question you had asked Preston in the response, which is like you know, hey, were you meaning to do this? The question Mark asked was like, hey, were you thinking of? You know face or Instagram pictures were very, you know, done up and you know super fashion and super, you know professional. And then these guys come in and it's so different from that.
Speaker 1:I say that not to say that it wasn't professional, you know, because the content might have still been professionally produced, but yeah, I just love that Like. So your enemy, like you might have you might not have known it, but you had this like enemy of just what the status quo was on Instagram. Number one and number two was the enemy was like the Arapahstal Hollister, Abba Crombie, like vibe, that everyone was loving and that's what helps you relate so heavily, because everyone, everyone identifies with an enemy and it's the same reason I bring this up all the time.
Speaker 1:It's the reason why everybody like. It's the reason why Donald Trump is one of the most polarizing, you know, most famous figures in the world. Right? It's because he has created so many enemies and because of that he's also created so many massive fans. This podcast episode is brought to you by Bestie.
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Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the fundamental rational, I guess, or human response, right, is to just be a people pleaser, right to be liked, right. I mean it's like evolutionary blah, blah, blah. I mean you don't want to be abandoned by your group, your tribe or whatever. So it's just so kind of counterintuitive to just be like no, bring on the haters, and because the reality is. And then to connect that to the point about enemies, like when you have an enemy and you're obviously tactful about it, to where you have some evidence that the enemy is hateable and that there are other people who share your beliefs. But when you have an enemy, it is. So it emblazons the people that are on your side, right, it deepens their love for our cause, right? So, yeah, we had a manifesto, we wrote something called the Chubby's Manifesto and that was like right on our homepage and we put it as a box in certain, every single shipment. You know, it was just like one of these things where we just said this is what we believe. You know, this is who we are, and a lot of it was constructed around the foil or the enemy, right, and so it was all these things that I mentioned at the beginning. But, yes, so like Abercrombie was a solid, so you have like a specific brand or company, but then you also have ideals or characteristics of life, but, yeah, mostly like feelings or ideas that are. Also when you think about it and when you name it, that also becomes an enemy. Like lack of confidence, right, like we connected long cargo shorts to lacking confidence in showing your legs. We likened the lack of like.
Speaker 3:We were also like an enemy was also like work in the work week and bosses and cubicles and things like that. Like that's very relatable. Like who doesn't you know who's going to say man, I love my cubicle, but being able to call it out because we were all about the weekend, right, that was Chubbys equals weekend, chubbys equals the feeling you have Friday at 5 PM. It was all oriented around that use case of you know taking off the pants that shackle you right and just thrown on a comfortable pair of shorts and then now it's your world. Right Now, no boss is setting up one-on-ones. You know, no one's telling you about TPS reports, if you know about the movie office space, which was just amazing, so that was the whole thing.
Speaker 3:So then it's very easy to just sort of like name an enemy and talk about why it sucks, and then people are like shit, yeah, I mean totally. Who's going to say they like work? No, I hate fucking work. I like barbecues with my friends, but it's essential to your point to have the enemy, off of which you can say the thing that you hate and therefore love Meaning. It's way more powerful to have cubical work bosses like to elicit that visceral feeling and then say, well, this is then why I like the weekend and barbecues, rather than just saying barbecues are awesome, right, there's just no weight to it. Totally, there's nothing around which you can rally.
Speaker 3:So, anyways, it's kind of like getting into the minutiae of positioning and stuff, but your point around enemy is great. Perfect. On the Instagram piece, that was exactly right, I mean. And then we Rainer very close and still close with Kevin, who created Instagram and the whole vibe was quality images. Right, I mean, it was this whole like that was the fundamental premise of filters in the first place, because the iPhone camera at the time was crap and you didn't have the bandwidth. I mean, just remember how slow, how long it took simply to upload a photo with 3G or 2G.
Speaker 2:I was going to say I think it was 3G. That was the context.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was the context.
Speaker 2:There's kids out there. So then this whole, like you were, around?
Speaker 3:You probably don't. And yeah, if you've ever just dealt with a page that loads for an hour and that, from a product perspective, that governed a ton of Instagram's value that they brought to the market was all of this front end client side caching that made it easier to upload photos. So that's like total side stuff. But yeah, that was the whole thing. It was like beautification of your photos and so our whole idea was like no, let's embrace the thing that looks like it's real and the thing that actually looks like it's a photo that was texted to you on your favorite group thread with all of your buddies.
Speaker 3:That was exactly what we were trying to capture, because that was what we loved. Yes, and magazines were still somewhat of a thing at the time, so you knew what those professional ads looked like and it was just sort of like the whatever name, your brand. But one of the epic ads that we've probably all seen I think it still runs is like some cologne ad and it's this gorgeous dude. He's super tan, dark hair, he's like leaning to his side on a boat, I don't know like in Greece or something, and he's just got this white speedo on. But it's just so serious and so, anyways, we would just that was just like what it was, or it was just like you're standing all stiff and the lighting is perfect and whatever, whatever.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, we were just trying to revolt against that and be more like regular people having regular good times, and not trying to be a is what I'm talking about like not trying to be a company or a corporation selling goods and services to customers, but just trying to be a group of people making cool stuff for our friends, totally. And you know that those words seem like obvious, but if you think about it, it's not and it ends up meaning a lot in terms of how you operate on a day-to-day basis, if you truly, I guess, extend out what those words could mean out like out to the limit. And so that was, I think, really huge for helping us create community, build up a follower base, you know, all of these sorts of things that ended up allowing us to really start to scale quickly and find like high quality reach at very low prices, just get distribution, get the word out in a very cost effective way, which allowed us to grow very quickly, very inexpensively, early on.
Speaker 2:And then I have another question for you, because, at the same time, a lot of people preach vulnerability and seriousness. Right, like you have to be serious if you're in business, and I think that obviously has a place, depending on your brand. But what's your advice to companies of how they should approach their personality online? Because I think there's a time to be serious, but I, you know, my thing is, I think companies take themselves away too serious.
Speaker 2:And people don't think about them half as much as they think people think about them, and so you have more room to play with things. So my question for you is what's your advice to brands about how they should approach this personality aspect online?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the one liner I would start with and then can dive in. But like the one liner is like, I get it, because the assumption that I've had before is that humor equals less smart or less of a good, reputable, trustable product service company or whatever Like the assumption is yeah, you'll make less money because you're treating it like a joke and other people won't believe you.
Speaker 3:they won't buy your product because of that. You need to come across as smart, because if you don't, you won't be respected. So these are some of the, I think, reasonable assumptions that a human can have around this front. As to why that might be, potentially because I've thought about it a little bit I'd be curious to get your thoughts. But the that's the beauty of what I think things like Shopify and other platforms that make it easier to start your own business and do it your own way, I think has brought to the world, which is a pretty tectonic shift in the last 15 years.
Speaker 3:Right can, because you can do it your way. You can do it your authentic way. You can be funny and goofy, and there are people who are like no, I resonate with that right, because so much of the professional interaction that existed, that has existed up until this point, is like your little shit peon and you've got to manage up and manage down and you've got to, you know, deliver for your boss, and it's all about like working in the company and just like maybe in three years I'll get this raise. Maybe in five years I'll get this position right where it's just like such a lack of freedom and such a I need to quiet myself In order to fit into the existing system or definition of success. So again, that, that and that was our enemy.
Speaker 3:That was another one of our enemies. It's just like this bullshit that exists out there. So so, yeah, I mean that's that's so much the core of what we were all about. Because when you can put out that authentic fun and passion and humor and lack of seriousness and like, fundamentally, just from a human perspective, they're just such like magnetic, aspirational personality, just like the people who are that way in your life you generally like want to be friends with, and because a brand is nothing more than effectively a human turned into a product, like it's just all fundamental relationships and relationship building.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So totally checks out. But no, that's, that's huge. And so then the advice is the advice is just like be yourself, like if you have a fun side, that is you and you like. You default to that way of being do it.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what I was just about to say With what you're saying. I think that that's, I think, what's happened with the word off. I've actually like learned to hate the word authenticity lately, because I think what's happened is people have redefined the word authenticity, which is serious, be serious, be vulnerable, be you know when, at the end of the day, like it takes a heavy tone like sad.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, sad, serious it's heavy.
Speaker 3:There's a weight on it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:When, at the end of the day, authenticity is just being yourself. And what's so funny is, if you're not funny, that and but you think that funniness is going to sell, it's not going to sell for you. You know there are so many people out there who have a more serious tone that crush it because they are inspirational and they are serious and you can just like humans were smart, we feel, we hear, we listen, we see and so we know when, like, somebody's trying to be funny but they're not. We know when somebody's trying to be serious but they aren't. And so I think that that's like the to me, the lessons, just like listen, if you are more light hearted and you are funnier and you are different and you are loud, that is authentic and be that. If you are more serious and you are more, you know, your color palette just in general is neutral and you, you know, then be that, because people are going to feel that and you will connect with the other people.
Speaker 3:So it's like yeah, I mean just like it's just like the filter can be. I'm just, I'm just the ball and but like, when do you get energized? What are you doing and who you with and what do you? What are you being when you're getting energy right? Because, like I'm just getting off topic like energy is so important when you're building anything right and it's it's less around I think Tony rabbits talks a bit about this like it's less around hours in the day that you're putting in work. It's more around, like managing your energy for the greatest output. Output and impact.
Speaker 2:So all has good back off that, that too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, he does. He does so man, energy and but then be cognizant of what is draining and then what is energizing, and like that's a lot of learning that I had to do because I personally went through this process of growing up. Man, I was smiling 23 hours out of the day, right, I was just goofy as hell. You know. People were like pressing, you're weird, and I was like I don't care, like this life is awesome, I'm just having a good time. I love to just make people laugh and have fun. And just like levity was my, my soul, right.
Speaker 3:And then, as I as I especially right when I graduated 2008, having trouble getting a job, figuring out, like who am I? What is my value? Maybe I have to be serious to be successful. Like honestly, maybe I have to just start dressing differently. And like maybe I have to just like do this thing, play this game and hide this part of myself. So, anyway, I don't know. You say it and it really resonates, because that is exactly my journey and that's why Chubbys was just such a godsend, such an outlet to just be who we were, and because we had done the five years, you know getting shit on by our bosses and, you know, not having control of our schedule, all this kind of stuff. So yeah, it was just sort of like this notion of freedom to be, you know who we are. But yeah, it can. I agree with your sense, your tone around the word authenticity. But yeah, totally, that totally resonates.
Speaker 3:And it's the big, the why that matters. I'll just make this final point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it goes like if you believe, if you believe that, like the purpose of life is to maximize your positive impact on the world, like in some form whether it be quantity, equality or some mix of both then the only way to do it is to be fully the thing like. If you believe in that you're like, unique and that there's like value to you as a human, then the only way to bring that value of you as a human to the world is to just like fully like rid yourself of all of the bullshit that is not you and that does not make you unique, and then just bring that you to what you're doing so that you can fully create something, a value. My intense belief like this is very tightly held is that if you're not doing that, your impact on the world is going to be blunted and that that is so sad like, if you just think about it, existential, like that is just such a bummer. So I don't know. I think this topic is just kind of important, for it's just kind of like that's what gets me so excited about the opportunity to create a business is that it provides the opportunity to just like, say, f all this other stuff. That didn't work for me. It works for some people my wife and no, in no way is this disparaging but she is a killer at being in a big company and doing that whole thing, like she's been at like 13 years and she knows how to navigate all the things and she's just really good at that stuff and that's authentically she's.
Speaker 3:I mean, I applied to work at Facebook out of college. They didn't accept me. I, you know, I just I couldn't, there's just no way right. So then it's just sort of like, and because I couldn't get those jobs right, I had such insecurity that what's wrong with me, you know, is it, is it this side of me that is just so fun and loves to just goof off and laugh? Is that like incongruent with success in the real world? And you know you have all of these crazy thoughts. So then that's why I get so excited about trying to support people starting something that they can own and direct and be responsible for, because I truly believe that's like the fullest expression of a human life.
Speaker 2:I love that man and and I want to put a framework around this, so a marketing framework, which really you know, because marketing is just an expression of a brand. That's really all marketing is, and what we're talking about is we've kind of blended the expression of personality and how that evolves into a brand or can involve into a brand. The marketing principle is called tension and release. Right, there's tension in life and if you can find a way to either create that tension or tap into that tension and provide the release of that tension, right, that's the moment that you can give other people.
Speaker 1:And if you can give other people that moment.
Speaker 2:That's how you create that brand identity, right. It's usually around that release of attention that they're experienced. Your, yours was a very personal one, right, it was like hey, my experience as a person I have all this tension around conformity Like that was like one of the biggest. Like you talking, you can feel it might made the biggest tension of your life for those five years was this conformity, was this job, was this? I can't even really be who I want to be at work. I can't express myself in certain ways like is there something wrong with me? Because I just want to have a good time. I just I don't want to act like this all the time. I'm not a bored guy. I don't want to sit on these rooms and like not joke Totally. So that tension was a huge thing and you found the release through your company, but then you also wanted to provide that same release through your brand for other people 100%.
Speaker 3:That was the fundamental framework that drove everything that we did, any content that was. I mean, that's the fundamental premise is get out of work the tension and then the release. Throw on the chubbies at Friday at five. That is the through line of the whole thing. Then every piece of content we made is coming off of that tension, release around work, deadlines, insecurity, seriousness, everything. So yeah, you put it perfectly.
Speaker 2:I wanted to also just point out comedy. The reason why comedy can work so well in marketing is because comedy and comedians are great at finding those tension points in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the relatable tension points.
Speaker 2:That's really all comedy is If you look at it. Yes, you have the sporadic off the wall comedy, but a lot of the comedy out there is really around what's the tension points in life and how do you flip it on its head to provide a release of it?
Speaker 3:There's innovation on two fronts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean there's innovation on two fronts there, because then you can hear what you're saying and just be like, oh, I mean, that's pretty obvious.
Speaker 3:But it's not because the innovation on identifying the tension and articulating it in a way because we live our lives unconscious most of the time, we just take these tensions for granted as just like the way it is and the status quo like the default. But it's truly not so. That's one of the amazing things that the best comics bring to this world is calling something out and then he calls it out and you're like shit, he's right, that is crazy, that is stupid. And then being able to articulate in an interesting way why it's stupid, why it's ridiculous, giving you a particular example, and then you're like, oh, I didn't think about it in that way or that was a surprising way to think about it or talk about it. So it really takes a lot of time and awareness and perception and practicing that, and some people have it just naturally. But it's way easier said than done, because there's a lot happening there, to expose it and relay it, excuse me, or communicate it in a way that is effective.
Speaker 2:Well, if, you want to go full circle to.
Speaker 1:Seinfeld. There you go. Exactly, that's right. Seinfeld made his entire comedic career off of pointing out the small tensions, that's all I want to see in obvious In everyday life Just be everyday the show about nothing 100%. I have one last kind of question I want to hit on, because I know we need to close out here, but I think this is just an interesting topic right now and I think I know we're a fun conversation guys.
Speaker 3:Super fun. I don't even know if we got into any of the topics you wanted to cover. I'm sorry, but that's what.
Speaker 1:that's the beauty of the podcast is you like you have some bullet points. Maybe you know you got a little skeleton outline and I actually think nothing's better than when you don't hit on it, because that means like we hit something that's so important for people to like really understand. And the reason why I want to frame this question because it's part of what we've already discussed, but it's it's I have I'm curious on advice you have for anybody listening, which is right now we live in the pay to play model, where most brands, in order to win, are spending crazy amounts of money on platforms like Facebook and Google and tick tock now and you know, and influencer marketing, whatever. What are your thoughts for people out there to who are struggling, like what? What can help them win? Like what do these brands need to be doing? What are, what are, what are the mistakes they're making in this world and what, what can they do to win?
Speaker 3:Yep, usually important question. I'm going to just do it like a self plug. Feel free to edit this out, but honestly it's impossible to talk about in whatever the eight minutes we have. But like I try to write about this every single day on like put out a poster day on LinkedIn because this is the question that was like the million or billion dollar question at Chubby's. So anything I write about comes from and anything I'm going to mention right now comes from the place of.
Speaker 3:I've made all of the mistakes and and then learn some stuff along the way, stumbled along. There was never an aha moment, but anything that I've figured out or any of the advice purely just comes from. It is so painful to do it wrong for so long and very humbling. So let me let me just say that. So some advice, some things to think about, like the biggest aha for us, or the biggest. The first thing I would say is I get it. It truly is that way. Right, there are so many things in your business that drive you to feel like you have to conform. Right, do the thing that everyone's doing. Okay, put a dollar in, hopefully, whatever 3.5 come out in, whatever your short term click based attribution window is and, and then that's the engine that drives your business.
Speaker 1:I like 180 day, because me too 180 day view through is even. Oh yeah, let's go, you through for sure.
Speaker 3:So that I mean it totally makes sense, and I've been there and it's so. This, this idea of okay, this is, this, is the one path I should spend all of my money on, all of my time on, because if I get really good at this, I can build a billion dollar business. That thought process makes a lot of sense and I have been there for a long, long time, and not that I'm not there I mean I'm not operating anymore but not that I got to a place where I was like had a high horse and I was just like frowning on people who still spend money on meta. No, still did a lot of that. So the the advice is it's okay, you know, it's all good, it makes sense. It's use the tool for your needs. Don't let the tool use you for their needs, if that makes sense. So what does that mean? I mean it's an amazing tool to get rich. It's an amazing tool to put content out there that feels like it's the content that your friends and you already are looking at and enjoy.
Speaker 3:However, there's the dark side, if you will. That is like the way that it reports and the definition of success, and I think that's the problem that I ran into, which is what truly is the definition of success. Is it ROAS? Is it the revenue that I drove that is attributable based on a click to an ad that I ran over the last seven days? Is that the definition of success? Is revenue the definition of success? I used to answer both of those questions with a resounding yes, right, because I thought my business, our business, was going to get acquired off a revenue multiple, valued off of a revenue multiple, which was absolutely not the case when it happened. So these are all just like things I had to learn, right.
Speaker 3:So the advice is okay, take a step back, right, let's not lose the force for the trees, sort of thing. Let's start to understand and think about and orient around metrics that matter rather than vanity metrics, and let's start to look at the totality of our business, acknowledging that Facebook doesn't have all of the context on your business. Facebook knows the revenue Facebook drove. Facebook does not know your own and organic and earned business, which is the most important part of your business, which, when that is stronger, that fuels your performance on Facebook. But Facebook still has no context on the true engine. I call it the free money machine. On the free money machine that you're trying to build in your business, because that's where the true asset value is, and I just didn't know that at the beginning. So, okay, we talked about how I get it, how it's so easy to kind of like get wrapped up in it, right, because you get all these metrics and then you can say, when you start to like make a little bit of money and you start to hire people, you could say, hey, your KPI is, take, click through a increase at 15 basis points by the end of the quarter, great, I'm going to be a manager because I've identified a KPI and I've set a goal and I now have a structure for how this is going to like. I'm doing a good job as a company builder executive, right.
Speaker 3:But again, like I was playing the wrong game. I mean, you mentioned of all stupid games when stupid prizes. Right, that's what it was, that was exactly what it was. I was playing the stupid game of Roaz in short term revenue, rather than playing the correct game, the infinite game, which is build up this resilient base of unpaid or owned and organic or organic revenue that is just always there, because that's what your brand is Like. Your brand can be all of this stuff that is branding. These are tactics, these are inputs into the financial definition of brand. Lvmh, right, bring top line something like 28% a year with something like 20% plus net margins. This is Google style financial performance. But I bring it up simply because that's the financial definition of brand.
Speaker 3:They've gotten massive. They spend a ton of money on marketing. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying don't spend money on marketing. I'm saying spend your money in such a way where it drives changes in people's minds, where they stop evaluating your product, where they stop making the decision to purchase your product based upon a rational analysis across all of your competitors, when they're making a decision based upon your product features, your price, the quality of your promo and whatever urgency you're putting in front of them. No, do that to a certain extent because you got to convert the folks who are ready to buy. Incrementality of that is low, but you do it to a certain extent.
Speaker 3:But where we have to get in the big journey of Chubby's evolution was understanding the power of changing minds so that when they think shorts, they think Chubby's. When they think swim trunks, they think Chubby's. Right, and it's just because of all of the stuff that we've seared into people's minds about connecting shorts and Chubby's and building up all this love and humor and positive association where it's the same thing, like with a friend. When you're just like if I'm going to go to a concert, I choose this friend. When I'm going to go to a baseball game, I choose this friend. It's just because you've built up those associations over time to where we can use what's called our system one. Thinking right, if you're a fan of Dan Connemann, system one versus system two, it's like system one, simple decision. That's the way we have to get through life.
Speaker 3:Let's turn the purchase decision into something that's system one. More of that happens. More people just search for your brand branded search, come to you directly. They purchase without meeting a discount. They purchase without meeting to click on an ad. You build that resilient, organic base of revenue. You still do all of the direct response, performance marketing stuff, but it's now you get these spikes and they're building on a growing base. And that growing base is where you get more of that profitable acquisition, where your contribution dollars and contribution margins start to go up, and that's when you actually start generating cash in the business. And so when you focus on contribution. You focus on building that resilient base by changing people's minds so that they're making an emotional decision rather than a rational decision. That's when you start making money as a business. That's when you start building something that lasts, rather than on one end of the spectrum. You have nothing against drop shippers, but you have that where there's just like you don't put ads out and no one's coming to your side, no one's buying from you, whereas over here it's like if we stopped running ads, whatever strong company Coke stops running ads, a lot of people are still going to drink Coke.
Speaker 3:Or if you talk about like I'm listening to the founders podcast right now and they're talking about Hermes, which is like a $250 billion company I had no idea that big, because I had no idea luxury could be that big and they just basically like as they increase price, demand goes up like it's just wild. But and there's a variety of reasons, but it's just this general idea that price doesn't enter the equation, it's not a rational purchase. So, anyways, that's the. That's like a whole bunch of stuff. And I touch on all this stuff when I try to distill it in writing. That's, the general advice is just like get out of these sorts of things that can be so attractive. Take a step back, get an understanding of what actually matters, contribution a lot of your money coming from organic traffic and build this resilient base that's always there, normally viewed as like a black box because it's like much harder to deconstruct and build. But you can and that's how you, that's how you do it, that's that was our shift, that showbiz. So, like you wanted to talk numbers.
Speaker 3:I think roughly, let's say, the big change and that was very gradual over half a decade maybe like 30% of our revenue was coming through like owned and organic and payday whatever you want to call it channels in the earlier days and that started high but then it's just slowly inched down as we got more and more reliant on, you know, bottom funnel conversion tactics, blindly following real as we stopped the ability we no longer have the ability to raise equity, so we raised a bit of money over the course of the business.
Speaker 3:I mean it's cool, we were growing fast. Dtc was the hit thing. Then it was no longer the hit thing, you know, like bonobos and trunk club and a variety of other brands got acquired for nice numbers, but then a couple years later they were completely written down and that was like okay. So now, when you have stuff like this happen, the market for your equity, for people wanting to buy your equity, goes from like five times revenue to 0.5 times revenue and you're like what, what have I spent the last six years of my life building? The value has gone down precipitously overnight, effectively.
Speaker 3:So we had two options you know, run out of cash, go bankrupt or try to write the ship, and the things I just talked about were effectively the things we stumbled upon over a better part of a decade but then ultimately got to a place where the vast majority of our new customer acquisition was coming through like owned and revamped channels, like 70 plus percent, right, and so then that helped insulate us from the iOS 14 apocalypse whatever you want to call it where there were some headwinds, for sure, but it didn't put us out of business. It didn't. It didn't present an existential threat. Whereas back in the day and I'll vividly remember this there was a time when I was like a groomsman in a wedding getting ready, and I saw that we the payment for a Facebook bill didn't go through and so our ads were no longer serving. And I then checked my Shopify, our Shopify dash, and saw that revenue was effectively nothing for that day. And and that's that moment, I think we've all felt, to a certain extent, we're just like. I do not have, I am beholden. I am beholden to another party. The success of my business is not dependent upon me, it is dependent upon this thing at which I have no control over. So you have that feeling like this cannot continue, getting to then a place where it just like OK, there's.
Speaker 3:We still do all of that short term stuff, of course, but we've also built up this like resilience and consistency. That that's the core of the asset value. If you're trying to build something that can get acquired, great, that's where the asset value is. But the additional benefit is that when you start doing that stuff, your business starts generating a lot more cash and then, to the extent you have the ability to do this, you don't have to sell to get liquid. Like the dream is right. To just be able to take swim and divvies is what I call it. Like just get, get those dividends as an owner in a business that generates a lot of profits. Like that's possible when you have a strong brand and you're not competing on a product offer urgency level. You're competing on this emotional level, right, and so that's that's. That's where it all changes.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, dude. And just a few like footnotes here for for the listeners. Well, he's referring to the type one and type two is Daniel Kahneman. So go by the book. It's called Thinking Fast and Slow, Nobel Prize winner right. Nobel Prize winner. And if you want to like I don't know more layman's version, you can go by. Switch by the yeah, the Heath Brothers. Heath Brothers right, yeah, heath Brothers, yeah, switch kind of talks about type one. They frame it as the elephant and the rider.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and I love what you brought up right.
Speaker 2:Because we've always said brand is the engine, right, advertising is the gasoline. But if you don't have an engine with oil and it's ready and it's working, it doesn't doesn't matter if you throw gasoline in it, right Like it's just going to burn out, it doesn't work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so and it's symbiotic at that point.
Speaker 2:So how do people create that brand presence where it becomes an emotional response, not a transactional, because a transactional response is the justification Of an emotional decision and if you can do that, then you're winning. Now you're people are justifying the reason why they need you, not necessarily You're trying to give them reasons for them to buy you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, dude one quick thing. I know we're over One thing we had to learn about because we did discounts Right I mean, but it is, it is so cancerous. And so one of the things I've been thinking about is what if in your Shopify dashboard, if you ever ran a discount, it actually showed I don't know a hundred X of what your total discounted revenue like, the total aggregate amount of discount for a particular day, right, when you're just looking at your daily revenue because you're going to get a revenue pot.
Speaker 3:But if you saw, and Shopify showed you, like the discount, the reality, of what you want to do for something like that, and it was like a hundred X the actual amount that was discounted Like I don't know the math, but you just got to be able to If you could feel the pain, the real damage that you're doing to your business by doing discounting, which, again, I did a ton of it, we did a ton of it, but we didn't feel it Like. You don't feel it in the short term, you just feel the quick pop Right. So, anyways, that was something that I was just sort of thinking about, but to your point, the justification. Then your word of mouth becomes cancerous, which is crazy. There there's cancerous word of mouth Meaning oh dude, cool shorts, yeah, dude, I got them 50% off.
Speaker 3:If that's the word of mouth, that is cancer for your brand, rather than cool shorts, dude, oh awesome, yeah, they're chubbies. Great brand, super fun, amazing product. Check them out Like word of mouth is not the same. Yeah, there are different kinds of word of mouth, because that person will only buy next time.
Speaker 2:We have a massive sale and probably won't buy that is a gem.
Speaker 3:Probably won't buy if it's 50%. They'll probably need something better. Because you have to bestie. You got to best your bestie, right, you've got to one up them. So they're only going to buy if it's like 51% off, whereas this other person they're like cool, yeah, whenever I'm in market, I'm going to go check out.
Speaker 1:Chinese, even if they're a little more expensive.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's some really interesting stuff there around justification.
Speaker 1:Part two. That'll be part two conversation We'll have to have a part two here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's do it. This was so fun, I completely lost track of time.
Speaker 1:Dude, sorry if I was rambling.
Speaker 3:No, this was awesome.
Speaker 1:We appreciate it. Like I said, oftentimes we don't ever script these podcasts, but oftentimes we'll try to come up with some sort of hey, this is what Preston did. Let's ask some questions here. The fact that we maybe touched on one of those things is actually really nice, because I think we went into talking authenticity, we went into the authentic piece of what is really going to help, what helped you and what is going to help anyone of these listeners. So, preston dude, thank you so much. Where can people find you?
Speaker 3:On the good old LinkedIn search, preston, rutherford. There's a little shorts emoji in between my first and last name and that's it. I try to kind of like write about this stuff like in one line. It's like how do you generate more profit in your business? And the way we found we're able to do it is by being able to connect brand building with financial results so that you can more confidently invest in building the brand.
Speaker 1:Perfect, awesome dude. In the footnotes of the podcast we'll also put like. We'll put your link in there as well, so just jump in, look down, scroll down to the overview text and we'll find you. But thank you so much, brother, really appreciate it. Thank you everybody for listening and we will see you next week. Have a good one. Thank you so much for listening to the Unstoppable Marketer podcast. Please go rate and subscribe the podcast, whether it's good or bad. We want to hear from you because we always want to make this podcast better. If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback, please go follow me and get in touch with me. I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and Tik Tok. Thank you, and we will see you next week.