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The Unstoppable Marketer®
Trevor Crump and Mark Goldhardt bring you quick marketing and entrepreneurial tips, tricks, and trends for DTC business owners, entrepreneurs, and marketers. These are lessons they've learned through the years of being right in the thick of scaling dozens of businesses. Whether you have an established business looking to grow, just starting your business journey, or trying to become a digital marketer, this marketing podcast will not let you down.
The Unstoppable Marketer®
EP. 113 The Power of Making Advocates and Enemies
In this episode of the Unstoppable Marketer podcast, hosts Trevor and Mark discuss the importance of disruption in marketing, using Melbourne Golf and Jason Day's controversial outfits as a case study. They explore how creating advocates and enemies through bold marketing strategies can lead to brand growth and industry disruption. They emphasize the need for e-commerce businesses to adapt and innovate in 2025 to stay competitive in an increasingly challenging market.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
Yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer podcast, with me, as always, my co-host, mark Goldhart. Mark, how are you doing today? Great?
Speaker 2:How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm really good.
Speaker 2:We're on a roll.
Speaker 1:With podcasts, that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're getting back to some consistency. Yeah, we. The holidays really ruined us Slow is smooth and smooth is fast as fast.
Speaker 1:I think we've recorded every week here in january. We're now in february, so I think we're in a good spot great, we're in a good spot, yeah back on track. Got some guests lined up, not today, sorry no I had a good one last last.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tested it out?
Speaker 1:Oh, did you the tent? I have not, I was going to ask you.
Speaker 2:I didn't spend a night in it. I was going to ask you.
Speaker 1:He gave us one. One was more of a light one, one was more of a heavy duty. I have the heavy duty one. I don't know why we got the ones we got, but as somebody who camps more, I was going to offer you which one would you rather have?
Speaker 2:I think I mean we can discuss after, but I do have.
Speaker 1:I think we should do it on the podcast. So I do, I do already have like a heavy duty, heavy duty setup.
Speaker 2:So you keep yours then so I wasn't worried about it. All right, like this is more of an ancillary. Yeah, nice, hey, grandpa wants to be there, but yeah. There's not a lot of room in the trailer for him Got it Well, but anyways, yeah, I set it up. It was great. Let's go, let the kids play in it, that's cool.
Speaker 2:I yeah, go test it up. Just put it up on your balcony or something. Yeah, I should. We had a couple trees in the backyard, we can put it up. Just lay down see how it feels. Was it nice? It's very nice, sweet. It is way better than a hammock as advertised.
Speaker 1:What about better than a tent?
Speaker 2:Well, for sure, better than a tent, because a tent's always a tent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, for sure better than a tent's always a tent. Yeah, okay for sure, better than a tent. We'll shout out for haven hammock. A little shout out for haven tents right there, that was fun.
Speaker 2:We'll cut this segment up and for an ad, derrick and it's very quick listener, so he's listening to this right, yeah, he is, and it's very quick setup. I got it set up in like five minutes really as a, as a first timer, as a virgin yes, I did all right. Well, there, there you perhaps maybe seven minutes, but it felt like five minutes okay, perceptions, reality like the, the only thing that's like if he is. I don't know how long it took like inflate sure the pad doesn't count though. I don't think that can? Yeah, cuz that's not on you right. Packing it away was really nice too.
Speaker 1:I'll give it. I'll give it a little setup. It's been so warm here yeah, it's weird we went night skiing last night and it was great it was 50 degrees while you were there, while we were there, nice sundance, amazing, I mean. It was awesome, but it wasn't at the same time Because the snow Like one Sundance doesn't get tons of snow Like compared to the other resorts. It still gets amazing snow but like there were areas where like it got kind of earthy In places that it shouldn't be earthy, because like so many people are going, and it was crazy.
Speaker 1:It got like 8 inches of snow A couple days ago too, so it was kind of a bummer, like it was really cold. Sundance is just a little lower elevation right lower elevation and the sun hits it.
Speaker 2:So it is, it is uh south facing on a lot, on a lot of parts not the whole, not the whole resort.
Speaker 1:There's a couple parts of the resort that are not, but I'd say half the resort is south facing and in fact, the the, the um canyon south facing. So as you're driving up, excuse me me, if you go up Big Cottonwood, Little Cottonwood Canyon, which is to like some of the best resorts in the world canyons, by the way, if you're listening there's, you know, three feet of snow everywhere right here. It's just all dirt and rock because it's facing the sun, so it all melts and then you kind of like loop around and then it's all snowy okay, and they make their own snow too, right, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:So it was nice, but it was hard for my kids because when it gets super slushy it like starts to create moguls. It's almost like powder, you know. And so my kids, who are kind of in their like learning stages, like they struggled to make good turns and well, yeah, it's just it's like grabby, yeah, it slows you down so, but it's fun.
Speaker 2:It's when you're light. You can't really push through it as easy. Yeah, yeah, that's fun. Well, yeah, speaking of sticky spots, yeah tariffs oh, tariffs, yeah, let's talk about the tariffs and disruption for many advertisers and businesses right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are tariffs going to be doing?
Speaker 2:The real answer is nobody knows. Yeah, but because of that, I think it's creating some uncertainty.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's how I would describe it. So our advice right now just TLDR, we're not going to go like super deep into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just because there's so many different ways you can look at the benefits of tariffs and the pros and cons.
Speaker 2:Well, there's always an immediate con to a quote tariff, especially if you're bringing in your product from China.
Speaker 1:It's a long-term solution, not a short-term.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the way this administration is approaching tariffs is hey, we're going to, because a tariff is a tax, so taxes are going to go up, right, right for the supply side of a lot of businesses. So the question is will taxes go down for things like business tax, income tax, right, will inflation go down? And? And the problem, though, is like tariffs are always immediate. What I'm suggesting on the, on the back of this, of what this administration is proposing, a lot of this isn't exactly immediate, unless there is like a hey, we're getting rid of income tax, which they claim they want to do. I mean, I don't know how real or not real that is.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But if you get rid of income tax and like, tariffs aren't a big deal because purchasing behavior Genius Would change pretty dramatically. Totally so. That's. That's the game we're playing now. I'm under the impression that we're in a wait and see phase. Like I, we're not really advising people that they should go and mass order from China right now. No right, Like, oh, go, order three years worth of inventory because you might have to pay extra in three months and that might and that might not be. We went through this in 2016.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we know a lot of cases where that turned out really bad for some companies yeah, be super careful with that because, like mark said, when trump was in administration and he increased the tariffs and talked about that, we at the time were working with a company who was working with faux leather goods and we tripled what we would order to save on tariffs and we did technically save on tariffs, but it put us in a really challenging situation because we didn't know how long faux leather would last. So it was just sitting on shelves for 12, 18 months because we had just stockpiled stuff. So it's a really risky. So just be careful. Based off of materials, based off of you, you could, you could update a product, you could. You know what I mean. Like if you're selling a backpack that's a bestseller and you order 10 X or five X, which you normally would, and then you find like some outrageously awesome updates to that backpack and now, all of a sudden, you have 10 000 units of the less quality, you know.
Speaker 1:So there's.
Speaker 2:There's lots of things you need to be careful with yeah, and, and most of the people who listen to this at least, if you're in e-commerce I mean, most businesses are like this, but especially e-commerce you just you're really dependent on, or the blood of your business is the cashflow.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right, and you cannot be bleeding out too much, too quick. And so if you think, oh, I'm just going to hurry and take out a big loan I mean, interest rates aren't great.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go take out this or make this like upfront investment. Now just do your due diligence and what what your business is like, because every po is cash going out the door. So you're not. It's hard, you know. E-commerce is not this get rich quick scheme. Yeah, you're building real businesses and it's. Yes, it's all on the internet and some people have this image of like, oh, I'm just going to make it rich because my business is doing 10 million a year, but there's a lot of businesses out there that do really well and people are not making a lot of money out of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and not to mention, like your cost of acquiring customers, at least from a paid ads perspective. It's gone up the last four years every year Like it's never going down. It's not going down this year. Um, not yet. Yeah, so, not yet.
Speaker 2:So if you, well, it has gone down since quarter four, but it has not gone down year over year typical trend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, year over year is what we're saying. So so just be careful, right, because if you flush out a lot of your cash flow and an unexpected increase in your marketing expenditures happens, you could be in a difficult situation which we've seen this right.
Speaker 2:So I think meta revenue grew 16 percent. Had inventory only went up four%.
Speaker 1:I think it was. Your numbers are almost. Yeah, I think it was like 14% and 6% or something like that.
Speaker 2:14% and 6%. But the point you're making is so we'll just call it 15% and 5%. Perfect yeah, more whole numbers, so revenue outpaced right the inventory. So what that means is that there was more demand, so more people buying into the placements, than actual More demand for ads than eyes to see, which is a problem.
Speaker 1:It can be a problem.
Speaker 2:Let those with eyes willing to see see.
Speaker 1:Exactly so, with those who are willing to see. Exactly so.
Speaker 2:With those who are willing to pay will pay.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of disruption, um and, and the discussion we're having right now, right, with things getting more and more challenging, it's going to take. I think, if you're an e-commerce business, listening to this, 2025 just needs to be and, and there's a reason why Mark and I we've I feel like we've been kind of almost beating a dead horse over the light. Is that the saying? Beating a dead horse, right, where you're doing something over and over again?
Speaker 1:Yeah, messed up a lot, yeah my wife beat a dead horse beat a dead horse, but we've been talking about disruption, difference change. It's like you know, the last probably five episodes has been let me not fully about that, but we dive into that and there's, there's like another tangent at least I'd like to go down, because 2025 is panning out to be very similar, like you said, like ad revenues up, ad placements or uh, ad um is outpacing ad inventory inventory that was the word I was looking for.
Speaker 1:Ad inventory is not as high, right, it still grew, just not as high as revenue. So if that's the case, it means your cost, your cost to acquire customers. If you don't changes and changes could be a myriad of things are going to naturally go up. They're going up, yeah, and depending on what happens in your category, right.
Speaker 2:Because that just means the supply-demand curve right yeah For placing your ad has gone up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's not also taking into consideration what the buyer behavior is. Totally, totally so. We're not talking about the supply demand curve for buying products. We're talking about the supply demand for placing an ad in front of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally like like there was. What mark is saying, see, for example, is like uh, what was the year of the tumblr that just the tumblr exploded? It was like 2000 probably four years ago 20. Yeah well, yeah, 2019. You know, 2019 was when stanley like emerged and they stanley wasn't selling them from stanleycom, stanley was selling them from likea boutique distributors like they would like do collaborations with them yeah, I don't remember yeah and then it was probably 2020, 2021 that stanley said we're not doing this anymore with you.
Speaker 1:Like we have something here, let's go full, full in on it. And then you have the hydro jugs and everybody else. So yeah, let's call it 2021 where like tumblers, like, really like, came out.
Speaker 1:That's the buying behavior. That, martin, like your ad placements could go, like your ad costs from how much it's costing to place the ads could go up, but, like a buying behavior, could also go up and could make your cost per acquisition actually much lower because of demand. So, um, but okay, so this is what I want to talk about. So the golf, let's talk the golf industry. So, um, the golf industry, if you're listening to this, is a very old, traditional, um, predictable industry. When you're think, when you think golf, give me a persona, tiger woods, that's your persona, tiger woods, oh, a persona yes, persona who yes, in your, in your head, if you're okay, yeah who is, who is the persona?
Speaker 2:it's a a persona is like you're a white, 30 to 50 year old white guy who's a white collar job.
Speaker 1:Maybe has a little bit of a dad bod, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Has enough money to play, probably married, maybe kids, maybe kids. Drinks a little and wears khaki pants, white shoes and a collar shirt yeah, like the old guard of golfing, yeah, yeah and and so in the golf world you have like four. I mean there's, there's, there's plenty of brands that everybody knows, but there are really four household names in the golf world which I am not a golfer, but I'm sure if I named I could name them all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you are not. I am a golfer, you're not. So name the four brands I'm thinking of.
Speaker 2:Callaway Yep. That's one Titleist Yep Nike.
Speaker 1:Not really anymore, because Nike's kind of pulled out of besides apparel like they used to do. But I think Nike is a safe one that could be across it. So I'm going to say five because Nike should probably be there. Just because because they're, nike does everything, because they're a brand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're a brand. Okay. So the other one I see a lot at least on just like a regular people is a Travis Matthews or something okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's interesting that you say that one.
Speaker 2:Like I see that on. Yeah, at least people our age. I always see the hats.
Speaker 1:You're missing like two really really big ones. Ten times bigger than Travis Matthew Taylor, oh, taylor made Taylor made Okay because we're going clubs Yep, does Taylor made make apparel? I we're going clubs Yep, does TaylorMade make apparel? I think they do now.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And then Ping.
Speaker 2:Ping was going to be the. Yeah, I was going to say Ping. Those are your.
Speaker 1:And then you got, I mean there's, oh. So I'm thinking, yeah, and you can go Callaway too, sorry, callaway, oh okay, sorry. I said Callaway Titleist, okay, cool, awesome. So now you could say, oh, there's, there's Cobra and there's Mizuno, and yeah, yes, there's some. I don't know any of those brands like those brands, like I know on good authority, are actually not big, profitable companies like a lot of people think of, like Mizuno, as like oh, yeah, they're everywhere, but it's like they're not that big. Okay, so you have, in this world there are tons of a collect. I call them like boutique golf brands. So travis matthews was one of those that broke out yes, they broke out.
Speaker 1:And they broke out because they had tons of money and they were kind of the pioneer of getting something different than a nike polo yeah, they were apparel focused.
Speaker 1:Yes, and they were like one of the very, very first that were like a little bit cooler, okay, okay. So they, they, they were the, they were the leaders of the hey. You don't just have to have a nike polo or an og polo or a titleist. You know, you know, you know a logo. You know a title list logo or back in the day it was, uh, oh, my gosh, what is it? Uh, ashworth clothing.
Speaker 1:You know some of these like older legacy kind of stuff, but these boutique brands are having a hard time, like they're. They're getting to this, like you know, five to maybe 20 million dollar range in annual sales, but they're having a hard time breaking into the mainstream. Your average joe golfer, like my dad my dad's 60 years old, he's, he's wearing khakis when he plays, he's got the polo on that generally has like his work logo on it. You know, like that's my dad right and he's got the polo on that generally has like his work logo on it. You know, like that's my dad right and he's playing with tailor-made clubs and the only reason he has a jones golf bag is because I got him a jones golf bag right, but beforehand he had a titleist probably golf bag or something, maybe an og yeah yeah, maybe an og.
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Speaker 1:So, so, okay, what am I? I've set the stage here. What am I trying to get out? So enrolls a company called malbin golf and malbin golf this is a relatively new yeah, they.
Speaker 1:Probably. They started around 2016. So they started right when we launched asher. Like. We launched asher golf, which is also like a boutique golf apparel company, in 2017 and um, and they had launched it and before it was like more of a store experience. So like they had something off fairfax avenue in hollywood where it was like a golf simulator and the guy who owned it was a creative director and he would produce things for, like celebrities, so like he could get justin bie Bieber into his golf studio and he would get dream and green in there, and so he just had these connections, but he would do these little collaborations with Nike and Callaway because he just had a name. Um, but anyways, fast forward to now and they kind of started to develop more street wear apparel in the golf space, which isn't you know. There's a lot of people who have followed that.
Speaker 1:But Malbin really took off probably last year, early 2024. And it was when they signed they might have signed in 2023, a pro golfer named Jason Day, so Nike dropped him. He used to be a Nike athlete. Nike drops him last year. Malbin picks him up. So why is this super important?
Speaker 1:So Malbin, who is this streetwear company? They dress him in some of the most outrageous, outrageous outfits. Outrageous for the golf world, for the golf world, for the golf world. So just heavy street. So, uh, we'll have to like hopefully on you guys can find a clip of this, but it's it. Find the vest he wore, this vest that says malbin golf across it and it's just this like out, not outrageous.
Speaker 1:Outrageous for golf, yeah, and it ended up getting banned at the masters and so that's what put malbin like on the map. So it went from a you're cool if you wear malbin golf to now people like my dad and my grandpa know who malbin golf is because they're watching everyone's watching the masters and they see, and there's all this talk and outside of who's winning and who's doing the best. The very next storyline is Jason Day and what he's wearing and how dare he come on the golf course like this? And if you go and you look at Google Trends over the last five years and you type in Jason Day's name, and if you type in Melbourne Golf's name, you see a massive spike in April of 2024. Cause that's when the masters are and pretty much every tournament that Jason days in.
Speaker 1:Melbourne is going up, yeah, melbourne search goes up. Yep, peaks up. You know peaks up and then kind of like the trend continues to rise.
Speaker 2:The trend sustains compared to the previous years.
Speaker 1:Yep. And then the reason why I'm saying this now, this story now, and I promise I probably took way too long to lay the foundation of the discussion here, but he just he just went even deeper at Pebble Beach for the Pro-Am Tour or tournament on Sunday. On Sunday, he wore a tracksuit like a sweatsuit. He wore a crew neck sweater and sweatpants. How's he playing with malvin? Um, you want to know the beauty of it? I have no idea, because the storyline isn't that like I don't know, I don't know, if he was top five he didn't win. I know he didn't win. Well, he's kind of past his prime, right, but he's doing better. Like, he's kind of like, yeah, he's kind of like, well, that's what I'm getting back into the groove of it is he?
Speaker 2:is it helping him perform?
Speaker 1:I don't know it's a good question, so okay. So why am I bringing all this up?
Speaker 2:malibu golf has disrupted he's accused of disrespecting pebble beach yeah, so.
Speaker 1:So that's what. That's what's happening, right, and pebble beach is the most iconic golf course in the world, and it's maybe outside of St Andrews and day, and his outfits are slowly becoming iconic so you're having tons of people who are coming out being like so disrespectful to the game, the PJ needs to kick him out, he can't wear this stuff anymore.
Speaker 1:But then you're getting other people who are like, why not like, like, why do we have to wear khakis and a polo? Like what, what is that about? And it's starting. So the here's the point. Guys, malbin said hey, you know what and I don't know what their revenue was, so you know, but let's say they were.
Speaker 2:They could have been crushing it.
Speaker 1:We don't know yeah, let's say they were between a 10.
Speaker 2:They're definitely doing better now yeah, let's say they're between a 10 and 20 million dollar brand.
Speaker 1:Okay, um, that's not including their outside distributors in there, because they're huge in asia and all that kind of stuff, but let's just say, in the us, from like a dot-com perspective, they're probably I I'd say it's probably safe to say they're in somewhere like that range. They just went from the cool kids on the block like hey, I'm old, like, oh, like you know, remember when you were in high school, pre like apple music and tiktok, and if you found a song or a band like you kind of held tight to that and like if you were like trying to impress a girl or something like that and you were like driving, you'd like you'd put that song on and she'd be like I've never heard this before, like yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, I found that those are the good days, yeah, and you like tell her and now you had this like little you know, and you you'd burn a mixtape.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's kind of how Malvin was pre this and now, like now, it's starting a discussion of people saying let's disrupt an industry, so this is going back to disruption. So how is a brand like Malvin Going to go from, you know, paying $100 to acquire?
Speaker 2:customer, because golf is seen as very stuffy, very stuffy.
Speaker 1:In fact, it's been a huge reason why it hasn't paying $100 to acquire a customer, because golf is seen as very stuffy, very stuffy. In fact, it's been a huge reason why it hasn't become a bigger.
Speaker 2:It's known as a somewhat dying sport. Well, not, I mean not to play devil's advocate. Covid picked it up a lot For sure, so it did see a resurgence.
Speaker 1:That's very true In COVID, because it was the only thing you could do outdoors.
Speaker 2:It was yeah it was one of those things that you could do outdoors, and so a lot of people picked up golf during covid totally true, but take covid out but nonetheless, yeah, the golf. Golf is a is a stuffy sport. It has old rules, it has a certain kind of etiquette. Yeah, you feel like you have, like there's rules everywhere, and then a lot of people are really uptight about it too, like you don't just get to go golf and have fun.
Speaker 2:No, no, yeah, Some people's experience with their first time golfing is like just someone getting mad at them because they didn't know some kind of etiquette rule or they did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're not going fast enough, or like whatever the the story is. The best way to equate this is do you remember the first time you flew, you went to the airport by yourself, without your mom and dad, and how uncomfortable you were? Were you like that? Were you one of?
Speaker 2:those people. I wasn't that young, so no, like the first time, I flew by myself yeah no, I was with like I was with a team. I was with the rugby team okay, no, no, by yourself but by myself it wasn't until I was like 18 19, so I wasn't uncomfortable at that point.
Speaker 1:I mean I would. I remember it was like my honeymoon and I wasn't, like I was nervous dude. I'm like, oh, what gate do I go to? Where do I park? Like there's these questions. I'm like, do I take my shoes? You know like, I just felt so out of place, like am I gonna be in the right spot? Did I get here on time? Am I gonna miss my?
Speaker 2:you know like part of that's just anxiety from your dad, right?
Speaker 1:it could be very true, but that's I think that's how the airport five hours, my dad is the type of guy who's like your flight. It was so, in fact, it was super funny. He was just talking to my, my brother-in-law. We were at dinner and he was like his flight was at. His flight was at 7 am, so he's like. So he had to be at the airport like 3 30.
Speaker 1:Dad 330 no like a 7 am Flight to get up at midnight. Yeah, 7 am Flight. Don't check your bags, dude, leave a 3 anyway. So, yeah, I could be a little bit more anxious because of my dad, but it's very similar. So it's very similar to golf, right, like you were just so, anyways, once again, I'm I very similar. So it's very similar to golf, right, like you were just so. Anyways, once again, I'm. I think I've laid the stage fair enough and probably way too long, right it's just an anxiety inducing the barrier.
Speaker 2:New experience that like you're already doing something new and then you have, on top of trying, a new thing. Yeah, you have the social weight, yeah.
Speaker 1:The barrier around you.
Speaker 2:So, like the barrier entry is not just the skill and the money, yeah, it becomes like this whole weight of expectation and behavior that maybe you're not used to.
Speaker 1:It's not just go, it's not just buying a football and going to the park and throwing it around Right, right, like there's a lot that goes into it, it's expensive and everything. So, which is why you should always start at the driving range. There you go. So this is so. Malvern golf decides hey, like, if we want to go big, if we want to become bigger, like we have to, we have to do something huge.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, maybe they weren't thinking huge, they're just thinking different. Totally because because, listen, listen, because it started out as different and good for a while, yep, and then it became oh, we have a chance to get someone, like jason day, yeah, like let's bring in somebody and this is the big swing, right, but like, don't, don't get it twisted. Like malvin golf has been doing the small things for a long time they've been building a brand for the last seven years they didn't just show up and get jason day totally so.
Speaker 1:They've been different and good for a long time, doing it consistently 100, and then they were able to take a big swing yeah, and, and not only that, but they also got somebody to buy into it, which is also why I'm like, hey, there's no way this guy is causing this type of disruption without ownership of the company. That's the other reason why I'm thinking like he's got to have ownership in it either ownership or he just bought into the vision because guess what?
Speaker 1:I'm sure half of the tour doesn't like what they wear for sure, and I'm sure half of the tour is super jealous and the other half is like and hates it. Despicable, yeah, but that's the beauty, right he. So malbin's drawn a lot, malbin's been doing what Malbin's been doing. But now they've got onto the spotlight level where they've drawn a sand and pretty much given the FU to the PGA culture by saying like hey, the old guard culture of golf, like we're going to change it.
Speaker 2:So before, and technically they are abiding by the rules.
Speaker 1:Yes, he had a. He had a. He had a polo underneath because so you could like. The rules are like collared shirt you could see the collar under like you're wearing a hoodie right now.
Speaker 2:You could see the collar, like you have to have your shirt tucked in yeah but you're a sweater, doesn't have there's nothing about belts yeah you know so, so yeah, and, and not to mention, it was like Heather, heather gray, which is also Cut.
Speaker 1:There's like something very.
Speaker 2:Leisure more Like that much more relax more of a leisure, like I'm seeing a bunch of memes of Rocky.
Speaker 1:Like Rocky and his track. Like Sweaty gray track suit.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, like Heather Gray is like what your dad's wearing, like Cleaning the yard yeah, it's what I'm wearing around the house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know easily, right. So, yeah, I love it Like you draw a Gray is like what your dad's wearing, like cleaning the yard. Yeah, it's what I'm wearing around the house. Yeah, you know easily, right? So, yeah, I love it Like you draw a line in the sand and what does it do?
Speaker 2:Well, it creates advocates and enemies. Yep.
Speaker 1:And generally like for every one enemy, which is what you're trying to do in marketing. Yes, like, if you want a good marketing.
Speaker 2:We talk about it, you know, on our podcast all the time. A good marketing strategy is creating advocates and enemies.
Speaker 1:That's probably the title of the podcast creating advocates and enemies.
Speaker 2:That's how you disrupt something, right? I mean, if you really want to take a step back and look at the greatest marketing campaigns, that's usually what it ends up doing. Right Like it draws some kind of line in the sand. It creates an advocate in an enemy. I mean, let's take, let's go back and take, like Nike, for example. Right like Nike, when it entered into the shoe space, similar to what Malvin golf is doing now, I'm all been like state was, has been golf the whole time. Nike was not basketball, the whole time Nike was running.
Speaker 2:It was running yep Right, but Nike wasn't cool, no. They were good and different in the running world and they were cool in the running world because of Steve Prefontaine and some stuff that happened, but no basketball player wanted to wear their shoes. Yeah, they weren't like cool to basketball was adidas converse adidas and converse, right like dr j had the converse and larry bird.
Speaker 2:He was kind of the big name magic johnson and so then you uh have to take a big swing like you're not making any noise in that world. So how do you disrupt that world while you get someone like mj and it's drawing a line in the sand, right like you have this new guy appearing with his own shoe. Yeah, that's a big statement. So you like it's a big gamble like his hand, you have this new guy appearing with his own shoe. That's a big statement, it's a big gamble. There's a lot of risk in that.
Speaker 1:He was not the number one prospect, wasn't he like the second or third potential?
Speaker 2:I think he was the number. He wasn't the number one. I don't think he was number. He wasn't the number one.
Speaker 1:I don't think he was. I think he was I could be wrong, I think he was, but there was other people in the talk.
Speaker 2:Well, because there was other companies that wanted to give him a shoe, yeah, but the other companies were going to give him his own shoe, no, so Adidas was not giving him his own shoe. But anyways, the point being in this story is Can I add one thing to what you're saying, though? It was risky and they made his shoes in a way that was different.
Speaker 1:That's the. That's the thing I wanted to add. Right, so it wasn't that you just had, like the, because he got to design them, you had the buy in. But not only did he get to design them, it was an illegal shoe technically. Remember that it had to be white. And because it wasn't white, every game he played in nike had to pay a fee. That's right. So nike, like that's. That was the big difference. So like yes, it was mj, and they lucked out with finding the right person to take the deal because he had swagger and he was cool and he was so good, they lucked out, but they did.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was clear that he was going to be totally really good. Was it clear that he was going to be the greatest ever?
Speaker 1:no, no, but it was the fact that, like he was wearing a shoe that at the time, now every kid Is wearing it and every kid was like, hey, that's Cool and different then everyone Would like like the very beginning, mocked Him and then, once he started, like dropping.
Speaker 2:The old guard mocked it totally yeah. But like all the new guard right, like all the new kids, all the youth, all the people entering into the market, they looked at that as cool.
Speaker 1:So the question is now.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing which is what jason day is probably doing right now but the only I mean now.
Speaker 1:Can jason day do it? Can he? He can lead the charge, can he do it all?
Speaker 2:no, well, the difference here is yes, like Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan Like, so let's not get it twisted. But what we're talking about here is like. Hey, golf is just a different sport. In general, nobody thinks Tiger Woods looked cool wearing his polos. Sure, like, no one thought that was a cool style. Yeah, he wore the red and black. Yeah, I wore the red and black.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, people thought that was like killer. It's iconic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you're talking to any 14 year old boy Like they didn't think that was cool. Yeah, no one did. Yeah, does the story change now with Jason Day?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would wager there's.
Speaker 2:Every high school golfer right now thinks Jason Day looks cool. Every high school golfer right now thinks Jason Day looks cool Totally. I'm not saying they all think he's the best golfer Totally. They want to style their game after him like Jordan, yeah. But as far as just style goes, of course, every kid and college athlete right now is looking at Jason Day saying, oh yeah, that looks way cooler than what I wear. I look like a freaking dork.
Speaker 1:Or just like wait, I don't have to wear this we're in khakis and a polo.
Speaker 2:I look like a 40 year old man. Yeah, like it doesn't look cool.
Speaker 1:Totally no offense to everybody out there, that's just the truth well, and the style, like we are in this, we are in like a, I like khakis and a polo for certain events. But yeah, and the last couple years have been a very disruptive cool like it's been a very disruptive style change right as like things have kind of started to falter back to more nineties, looser, yeah, and you notice that with.
Speaker 2:I don't know there's feel, just looking at the pictures. Yeah, again, I'm not deep in this, but it looks like they're using more vintage. Yeah Well, vintage materials like like it looks like they're a lot more cotton based. Yeah, materials like we're like it looks like they're a lot more cotton based. Yeah, they don't have that like heavy synthetic glossy no, it's not performance.
Speaker 1:It doesn't look like dry fit yeah it's not like uh, what's the, what's the? Uh, what's the brand? Uh, under armor, so that like under armory, kind of like that nike dry fit, it's this right, it's the slackery kind of feel to it, like that Nike dry fit.
Speaker 2:It's this. Right, it's these slacker pants. Yeah, it looks like the vibe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I think that that's 2025. You know, if you go back and you look at your P&L, there's a really, really good chance that 2023 compared to 2024, you may have made more revenue, but made less profits. It's a really good chance. We're switching in 2025, uh no, sorry.
Speaker 1:2023 to 2024 yeah, um, and which means that there's a really good chance that you could be in a very similar boat, and so, depending on how hurt you got in 2024, there can be an expectation that, if you're not going to make any big changes, that the hurt is going to be similar or more. Yes, right, and so what we're trying to do here, and the reason why we're once again just like beating this point in, is you have to find a way to disrupt like this. 2025 needs to be the year of disruption.
Speaker 2:And the easiest way to disrupt is through ads. That's my hot take, like everyone thinks it's by making the next greatest product, which you should do.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying don't go, make a great product.
Speaker 2:Sure, that's long. Yeah, you're not just going to spin out the next greatest thing tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had a Haven Tents on. That's kind of disrupted the hammock industry a little bit For sure. Right. So it's a disruptive product market fit thing and that's why they're. I mean, I was really surprised when we talked to him. I was like, wow, these guys are doing much better than I was thinking, based on some of the numbers he was putting out. Some of those might not have been on the podcast things that he just told us internally.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, they're doing great. But there's still the thing about disrupting an industry through product is it takes a while, right, like you have to have people buy it, use it, share about it. Yeah, that's a long cycle, like that's not something that can happen as quickly, but what you can do overnight. I'm not saying it works overnight, but overnight you can come up with a brand new position.
Speaker 1:yep, right, your branding position or your marketing position, which could be that line right that we'll talk about hey, how do, how do we stand out?
Speaker 2:maybe create controversy, or how do we just simply sell it like? How do we actually tell people why it's the best? How do we tell people why others aren't? How do we connect on an emotional level of, like what people are feeling when they should be buying this?
Speaker 1:how do I create? You can even think how do I create an enemy right?
Speaker 2:who is our enemy? Sometimes that's the easiest one how well one of the you know, I, when I was talking how many times do we do this with brands and you're like they'll start telling you things about their product. You're like well, why, why aren't you saying that? Yeah, like everything you just said in the last 30 seconds, yeah we had this discussion yesterday, literally yesterday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was an act. This is an ad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why aren't you guys saying this as a brand? Yeah well, you like you know, there's always an excuse.
Speaker 1:But it's like just well. Well, that one with him was like there was light bulb. He's like yeah, I guess we should. I guess I can have her talk about that.
Speaker 2:It's like oh, yeah, like this is. This is why this is so much better than every other. Yeah, option, totally like how can you guys haven't said that before? Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know yeah, so you can start with like start with who's your enemy, and oftentimes who your enemy is can help you lead to who your brand position and message is for, and starting with an enemy is really a nice thing too, because that's what we actually ended up doing in a inadvertently with that conversation yesterday.
Speaker 2:But if, if you start with an enemy, it'll rile up some emotion, and in the person you're brainstorming with, for sure and it can create some really cool content. That's where these passionate yeah statements, these absolute statements, not the sure. I just want to be nice with everybody, oh but she or he can wear it too.
Speaker 1:You know it's like no, I don't want that person wearing.
Speaker 2:This is where you get passionate about why your product is your product. Yeah, and that's where the that's where you're going to get a lot of marketing gold from. I agree like not the nice, not the nice stuff, like the passion, like people want to see the fire totally yeah, there's just.
Speaker 1:I mean I think I think I saw a tweet the other day that it was somebody was saying it might have been sean frank, the ridge wall guy, but he was saying this person on twitter was saying shopify, which is the e-commerce giant, right, they like they're not winning on creating more features. Sure, yeah, maybe a little bit of cart value goes up or share wallet goes up, but I can't remember.
Speaker 2:They have to have more stores.
Speaker 1:They win when more stores sign up, so they have to. Now they also win.
Speaker 2:The thing that he left out is that they are also winning because they take money out of the Shopify app store. Sure, so there actually is a share of wallet that he did not address.
Speaker 1:Totally yeah. So meaning like once a Shopify app hits what is a million dollars in sales, they take 10% of 10% or 15% of the app, totally.
Speaker 2:So yeah, there is a share of wallet play from shopify that isn't just new stores, but the point, that doesn't mute the point yeah, the point is shopify is trying to get new customers and so the barrier of entry.
Speaker 1:As the barrier of entry as shopify gets more customers, it actually ends up hurting you existing guns?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, that's just more competition. Yeah, because more competition.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we see it all the time, like when we run reports for our clients and they're looking like, oh my gosh, we spent 20 more but only made 10 more this year. It's like, okay, let's go look to see what happened on the competition side.
Speaker 2:It's like your competition doubled and you had no idea yeah, and you know, and it's easier to see in like a google ads, sure, yeah, it's like a look at all these new people bidding on your brand, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:You can see directly Right and and Temu is one of them now too that we're seeing like.
Speaker 2:But they did close the Temu loophole. So what do you mean? Part of the this tariff thing is they closed this loophole of of shipping containers less than $800, so like that could actually end up being a big benefit of getting rid of some of these.
Speaker 2:The competition wrecked Chinese competitors yeah, maybe I mean again speculation and anybody telling you exactly how it's gonna unfold, like they nobody really knows. Yeah, until we know, for. But what we do know is that there's always going to be a short-term pain with the potential of long-term benefit, like if inflation is coming down, etc. With inventory, but nonetheless. Yes, competitors, shopify wants it easier for competitors to come in. Yes, so your competition is going to go up, not down. Yeah, never going down. So how do you?
Speaker 1:No, I shouldn't say that. 2025 could be the year where some of your biggest competitors are what you think. Remember, we had Portland Leather Goods on.
Speaker 2:Where they start crumbling. Yeah, they start to crumble.
Speaker 1:Because they're not listening to things like what we're saying right now.
Speaker 2:We already know of a lot of examples from guests in the industry, of people who are that you would think are crushing it, who are barely alive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we went through like a little like a exercise of of people we had consulted for clients and you know like, or just people we'd talked to from back in the day that maybe never had affiliation with. We're like, oh, these guys were crushing it and we were like looking them up and it's like 404 errors.
Speaker 2:And do you know why? I think the big going back to the cashflow and then we can end this, but a lot of these people that you think are crushing it that end up failing fast. Shortly thereafter it goes back to that cashflow. Like you can grow too fast. I know that sounds crazy, but something that we always advise people is like you can grow fast and like even two X-ing in a year. That's huge, oh for sure, right, but there are consequences to growing too fast. Yeah, because sometimes you don't know what happens at the end of that road.
Speaker 2:Like you can grow so fast that you have no more cash to take care of maybe your operations or your marketing or whatever it might be, or maybe there's a black swan event, so then you don't have cash, yeah, in your holster yeah, the black swan event being covid being. Covid or a tariff when?
Speaker 1:POs got delayed and then they all came in six months later and everyone had this old product.
Speaker 2:And then it took six months Wait.
Speaker 1:we need to be ordering new stuff. So yeah, there's all sorts of stuff that can happen, but growing steady and steady can also be very fast.
Speaker 2:But you got to just plan it out like plan out what your cashflow looks like with each PO that you're placing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you're a company that relies on POs and just map out like, hey, we're growing it this much, like how much cash do we need for each PO? Right, and what happens if something happens? Right, like, what is the emergency reserve we need to operate? Yeah, yeah for sure I like it but nonetheless disrupt Jason day. Go check out Jason day yeah, really curious.
Speaker 1:It'll be fun to do another like segment on. I mean because we're getting into, like majors, the golf major events right, so spring summer yeah. So it'll be very interesting to see what happens over the next little bit because, like I said, just watch. He is the story, he is the. He's not the leading storyline, because the leading storyline of golf is always going to be who's winning? Yeah, is it an underdog. Is it the Bryson's of the R, always going to be who's winning, who's winning? Yeah, is it an underdog.
Speaker 2:Is it the Brysons? Who's the best? Who's Jason? The people who are like?
Speaker 1:at the top already. Is it the Scheffler you know? And then, like, the second story is always like what did Jason Day wear and who did he piss off? Be very curious. I suspect Masters April. Suspect Masters April. I suspect that if he just went big for the Pro-Am at Pebble and he got his vest banned at the Masters last year, I expect something that's going to flirt with the lines at the Masters. Personally, he's going to do something that's going to just be.
Speaker 2:So he had to just change his outfit at the Masters. Yeah, they said he can't wear that. Is he a previous winner?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think he was a previous world number one.
Speaker 2:So he's got a lifetime invite back to the Masters.
Speaker 1:I don't know if he's a previous Masters winner. Okay, that's what. I was wondering he's won a major, I believe. Okay, you'd have to look that up. I don't know if he's a previous masters, but they wouldn't. I don't think they would not let him play the masters because of that if he wasn't, are you looking it up?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, I'm looking it up because I know that I don't know a lot about the masters, but I do know that if you win it, if you win it, you got the and you have a green jacket you have a lifetime invite back. Yeah, like you do know that if you win it, if you win it, you got the and you have a green jacket. You have a lifetime invite back. Yeah, like you and you, because I know a lot of people play it. They like aren't really yeah still in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then you get some people who don't play anymore, because they, you know like what's his name, mike Weir.
Speaker 2:Like he won it and I don't think he played last year but he was playing, even though he wasn't yeah, he wasn't even on the tour. I don't think right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think he's senior now, but he still had an invite back. Yeah, we're getting into semantics here, nonetheless, Okay, that's it.
Speaker 1:Disruption. What was the line you gave us? What was the podcast title line that you gave us? Advocates and Enemies. Remember Advocates and Enemies. Start with the enemy and work your way backwards. All right, and we'll see you guys next week. Sayonara Adios. Thank you so much for listening to the Unstoppable Marketer podcast. Please go rate and subscribe the podcast, whether it's good or bad. We want to hear from you because we always want to make this podcast better. If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback, please go follow me and get in touch with me. I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and TikTok. Thank you, and we will see you next week.