Speaker 1 0:01

Yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the unstoppable marketer podcast. With me, as always, is mark goldheart, who is always on his phone when I introduce him. I know, I am Just always on the phone. I just Just become pretty close now.

Speaker 3 0:20

Probably should be at this point. Yeah, now I just have to.

Speaker 1 0:23

I just I wish that I was looking at your phone and just I wish it was just your home screen and you weren't actually looking at anything.

Speaker 3 0:30

Like if I would make it even better that would be like you did your ethos. What if I actually am like no thumbs?

Speaker 1 0:37

It's like those people who are like who. There's been times where an article like celebrities will be like caught On the phone without. Yeah, they're not talking to anyone, they're just like but they're just trying to avoid the Media and then it'll like, it'll show that it's like their messages that are open, or something like that so.

Speaker 3 0:57

Now we're good, that's good. We're coming near the end of the year, some big events coming up right. For not me particularly, but for most people, you got bowl games, college football.

Speaker 1 1:10

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:10

Alabama snuck in.

Speaker 1 1:12

Yeah, what do you think about that?

Speaker 3 1:14

Our great producer over here. Abby is a she's roll, tide roll, tide fan a fan big, big Bama fan.

Speaker 2 1:21

Yeah, only cuz of my family does Galooza.

Speaker 3 1:24

Yeah, she's lying, she's just a fair weather fan.

Speaker 1 1:28

She's always had a crush on. Nick Saban.

Speaker 3 1:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:31

You know it's funny about that. Like in the South, they worship Nick Saban.

Speaker 3 1:35

He is he is the Lord and Savior, second only to Jesus. Yeah, I understand might be, might be more than him, I mean, in some places well they worship him probably, if you measured up fiscal Spend on what where people are spending their money they probably spend more money on him and time and time over like it like how much money in time they spend in like a church or something like that.

Speaker 2 2:00

They may have more pictures of him, of Nick Saban, in their house than they do. Jesus, saint Saban, yeah.

Speaker 1 2:05

Saint Saban, that's. I mean, look, I'm gonna say something that may be embarrassing, but and I already know what you'll think about this mark but I am as I do the dishes I like to. I just Turn either. If I have a good podcast, I'll listen to a podcast. If not, I'll just turn on, like Netflix, and just like watch something. And lately I've been watching they had they're doing like a lot of documentaries. You know, like they did point break, which is like tennis. They did a camera with a golf. One is when they like fall a bunch of golfers, but they've done all these like really cool, like Netflix is doing cool documentaries I like in sports. However, I took a little break from that and I restarted the classic TV series called Friday Night Lights, which you, I'm positive you have never watched a single episode, nor ever will, nor care to, but it is one of the best I watched the movie Series. It's ten times better than the movie. Is it 20 times better than it's like?

Speaker 3 3:07

a. Like fall, it falls a high school, the movies a little more serious. Probably right does no Drama it's definitely serious.

Speaker 1 3:18

Yeah, I'm like a drama Perspective anyways well, I thought the movie was done into the. I actually didn't love the movie that much right soundtrack, but Well, yeah, are you talking Explosions in the sky? Yeah, yeah, and. And explosions in the sky also got a contract with Friday Night Lights, the series and the whole soundtrack. It's all explosions, this guy, which is awesome.

Speaker 3 3:41

Wow.

Speaker 1 3:42

Anyway, sorry, but we're talking about Nick Saban people worshiping, and I totally get it, as you're watching the college foot Like this, I'm watching this high school football and that's all they talk about his football. But I also used to live in Dallas, texas, and I used to be the typical stereotypical Utah pest control door-to-door sales guy. Nice, and when we would knock doors on Friday, no one would answer the door. No one would answer the door because everybody Would be out supporting their team.

Speaker 1 4:18

I mean, it was crazy and we'd go to some of the high school football games and they were awesome, so you know that kind of fandom for high school in Texas makes more sense to me than college football fandom, though why?

Speaker 3 4:32

Because Most of the people live in the area, right, so you're supporting a high school, so you know it's, it's your community. It's kids, you probably know. Sure, we're college football. It's not even homegrown kids, I mean, it's just kids from all over the place. I mean it's just like a hodgepodge of people from all over the country. But you attended it Most. A lot of people attend most. College football fans did not attend the university.

Speaker 1 5:03

Or had like a family member who attended and it was like passed down from generation.

Speaker 3 5:09

Right, yeah, like kind of like generational trauma.

Speaker 1 5:12

Exactly like like my dad is a diehard BYU fan and he never went to BYU. Yeah, but my grandpa is a BYU Hall of Fame athlete, so really, really pickleball. No, pickleball did not exist back didn't know, badminton baseball and basketball and basketball. Yeah, my grandpa actually got drafted to the Pittsburgh Pirates. But going back to college, Well, the thing is is you made a point. You made a point about how you think that it makes more sense for high school. It does make more sense because yeah, when.

Speaker 3 5:44

And when I say generational trauma, I'm I'm half joking. What I mean by that is I have a theory that college football is just Passed down, sunk cost bias. Somebody spent money at a university, right? They put all this time and effort into something and so, therefore, they are more dedicated to that idea of what that university Is or was. I agree with that a hundred percent, and so then, they have to just continue to root for that team, no matter what.

Speaker 1 6:14

I agree that a hundred percent. I actually think, like I'll think a lot about that. Like I used to be die diehard college football fan and then one day just dawned on me that I'm like I'm ruining my what? My night and my wife's night because a college football team lost because 19 year olds didn't play right. Like I just had that like dawn on me one time and I'm nineteen year olds controlling your entire emotional.

Speaker 1 6:36

Controlling my, my Saturday night and how me and my wife interact with each other. You know, and I'm just like how stupid is this? And then, and then, when you actually think about sports in general, you think like I mean, I love sports, but you, when you think about how emotional you get about it, the fact that you, like a 30 year old man, wears a 19 year olds jersey there's something just kids jersey, cuz he's good at something like, what do you think about that? Isn't that kind of weird For the sports percent.

Brands and the Sunk Cost Bias

Speaker 3 7:11

Yeah, I was just thinking. I was just thinking about like what, what would we do if, like, a 35 year old man was wearing a 16 year olds jersey?

Speaker 1 7:23

Well, that happens, that happens yeah. I think that's a teen year old high school yeah really like there, besides their parents Does, is to do fans, I'm sure in big places like they're, like in Dedicated places like Dylan Texas, you think that happens.

Speaker 2 7:38

Alabama, alabama high school games?

Speaker 1 7:41

I don't know about here in Utah.

Speaker 2 7:44

It's just all romanticized. What if it's? A what if it's blown away.

Speaker 3 7:48

Well actually think about this if it's a 40 year old man wearing a 16 year old girls jersey name and he doesn't have any relation or know this person?

Speaker 1 7:57

That would be weird, that'd be weird. But here, why? But listen, listen. But why is that weird? Well, who is the dude? Who was the best?

Speaker 3 8:05

He really likes volleyball.

Speaker 1 8:06

Who was the BYU basketball player? That was really good, this white dude. He was a lefty. He punched the Utah basketball player.

Speaker 3 8:17

I don't know.

Speaker 1 8:18

Oh my gosh, I Live next to his parents. I literally live right by his parents.

Speaker 3 8:26

Punch. Why can't I think of?

Speaker 1 8:27

what their last name is. I feel so stupid.

Speaker 2 8:28

I don't know. Is it Nick Emery?

Speaker 1 8:31

Nick Emery Okay, Nick Emery People in that area because I live in that community.

Speaker 3 8:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1 8:38

People in that area Like talk about him to this day and I mean that was 10 years ago, I think, or maybe not 10, eight years ago and I'm like I could probably see some people having a Nick Emory Lone Peak high school, jersey, jersey. Like that wouldn't be surprising to me.

Speaker 3 8:57

Yeah, but that's like having is wearing a Michael Jordan Jersey after the fact that he was in high school is different if you found his high school Jersey.

Speaker 1 9:08

Well, I'm talking about when he was in high school. I like youth.

Speaker 3 9:11

You could see people wearing it like adults.

Speaker 1 9:13

But on the other hand, I don't think, like my son loves jerseys, my son's eight, he loves jerseys. Guy, he's got Michael Jordan, he's got you know, alan Iverson, he's got. Shaq, he's got, I mean, he did. He's got Carvalone, he's got like five or six. Greg Oster tag I wish, man I wish. Yeah, funny fact is one of my best friends bought Greg Oster tag his old house, which was pretty cool.

Speaker 2 9:37

I went to a Utah football game and it reminded me of If I lived back in the Roman Empire.

Speaker 3 9:46

It'd be the Coliseum yeah and you have to make.

Speaker 2 9:49

It's kind of like Hunger Games, almost like you. Also. You have to make a what are they use? What's the word they use? You have to make like an example of someone, or you have to make someone big. You have to make someone Influential enough that you can put them as the face of pizza hut, like camera. I seen, yeah, you know like it's an interesting social dynamic actually. Yes, and it's marketing.

Speaker 1 10:15

Look at her, the unstoppable marketer right there. Yeah, look at that marketing.

Speaker 3 10:21

Well, I think to your point. I think it's an. It's interesting how people's state of mind changes based off of where they are, what they're doing, and and, as marketers, you have to understand that people's buying behavior changes based off of the mood they're in, which is often predicated by the situation that they find themselves in as well.

Speaker 2 10:49

So like Disneyland.

Speaker 3 10:52

Yes, disneyland. Or if they're going through a big life change, they're more likely to buy or try new things. So Big companies know this is if a woman is Pregnant or postpartum, they're more likely to try something new. And so a lot of people say why is that? It's? It's just what people do. When something is Changing, when there's a big change in your life, they're all the sudden willing to like, examine and change other little.

Speaker 1 11:22

Dynamics of their open yeah.

Speaker 3 11:24

So they're more susceptible to being sold to. So people spend a lot of money targeting new parents, not just because of baby products, but also because, oh, they might actually change their energy drink that they're totally or they might change their Serial or whatever it is. Yeah and so trying to target people during those states of mind is interesting, and it's also just interesting thinking about, yeah, how primitive people can be when it comes to sports.

Speaker 3 11:53

Yeah and I don't say that judgmentally either like I'm, I'm as guilty as the next person, right? Sure, like it's fun and it's, it's a good outlet, but it's interesting. Why do people get so attached to a sport team? Because that's a brand, yeah. Why do people get so attached to the brand of a team and to certain company brands, and why do they not?

Speaker 1 12:16

I was gonna say you have others. I was gonna say you have like. You can take this from a, from a sports perspective, and you can turn this to like like cars, you go. If you grew up in a family that was a Ford fan. You are a Ford and Dodge is the worst.

Speaker 3 12:34

Yeah right.

Speaker 1 12:35

If you grew up in Dodge you're like how could you ever have a Ford?

Speaker 3 12:40

And now if you go up in a Tesla?

Speaker 1 12:43

Family's like how could you ever drive a gas car? I Don't know. Maybe we'll see what happens if that's how people are, we'll see but I do think you're right that, like it is this sunk cost bias that Generationally has been passed down from grandparents to the sons, to grandkids right so here's an interesting question.

Speaker 3 13:06

Walmart hit me, Hate it. Does Walmart have a brand? Yes, yes. Do people shop at Walmart because it has a brand or just because it's the cheapest?

Speaker 1 13:22

Well, I can, I, I mean, I think that it's both. I think that that's Walmart's brand.

Speaker 3 13:27

Okay.

Speaker 1 13:31

But, the but. But I don't think. I'm not necessarily. Well, I guess I think their tagline, if I am not mistaken and Abby, you might have to look this up, I think low prices is in their tagline every day low price. Is that it?

Speaker 3 13:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2 13:48

Save money, live better. We're both wrong.

Speaker 3 13:50

No, go back to the, go back to the two thousands. I'm pretty positive every day price was in their commercials all the time anyways.

Speaker 2 14:01

Always low prices, because do you remember I said Walmart and then it had always underlined yeah, it was, they had they rebranded.

Speaker 1 14:08

Yeah, that's right. That makes sense. Well, because I, yeah, yeah, so.

Speaker 3 14:13

They're. It's interesting, so I. So. I think what I'm trying to get out here is you have a company like Walmart, one of the biggest companies in the world, right, correct, paper, thin margin when it comes to per product, but huge value because of quantity sold. So like their whole model is just based off of Lifetime values, of people coming back. Low prices, yeah, but they don't have a brand like. Nobody says I'm a Walmart Person. I'm a Walmart guy. My family is a Walmart family.

Speaker 1 14:48

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The Importance of Brand Identity

Speaker 1 15:41

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Speaker 1 16:31

They do have a brand, but people Don't always want to be associated with that brand?

Speaker 3 16:38

Yeah, but I would argue, that it's not even a want, it's just people don't. Well, because yeah whether your high status, you know economically speaking or you know in the lower spectrum. I don't think people associate it as a brand like they don't View themselves. It's not part of their identity in any way. Where Costco is Like, people identify as Costco families like. I am a Costco person. But what's the difference here between a Costco and a Walmart? There's one huge difference, once more exclusive than the other.

Speaker 1 17:17

Yeah, they're both cheap.

Speaker 3 17:20

I would wager their prices are within Sense or dollars, comparatively speaking. If you're a cost, go person Sense or dollars comparatively speaking. If you lined them up Like I don't know, maybe in bulk you're gonna get a better deal. Costco for some things Right, but Costco has a membership. Walmart does not. Now Walmart has Sam's Club, but nobody talks about Sam's Club.

Speaker 1 17:51

So my question for you is like what is so? What is it that makes somebody want to be associated with a brand? Because, because Walmart does have a brand. There's no doubt that they're a brand and it is just cheap, it's. You can get anything you need At the lowest prices.

Speaker 3 18:10

Sure, I mean again, I'm not saying that I mean by the pure definition of a brand, right, but what we're saying let's change the definition of what a brand is like. A brand In this context, like what we're referring to me right in the Miriam Webster dictionary, there's always three definitions For any word. Right, like you can have a sub definition. This this is what we're referring to right now I think is a brand is something that people actually identify with.

Speaker 1 18:42

So people want other people to know that they associate with that? Yes, so why do people do that?

Speaker 3 18:51

So, for example, my wife, we, we go to Walmart, we do a Walmart run. We also have like a Harman's run and then we do a Smith's run, depending on like what we're buying.

Speaker 1 19:01

No Costco in there but out of.

Speaker 3 19:04

But out of those brands I would identify as a Harman's.

Speaker 1 19:10

For those of you who don't know who harm what Harman's is. You're really missing out. By the way, yeah, if you don't live in the grocery store yeah.

Speaker 3 19:18

The best like Walmart is you order it, you go, you pick it up and you leave. You know what I mean. Like there's no.

Speaker 1 19:25

So people want to. People want to associate themselves with brands or identify as a brand that they use because it makes them what. Why is them?

Speaker 3 19:35

feel a certain way. Yes, now Walmart might make you feel, certainly because you got a good deal, but nobody's like out there being like I'm a.

Speaker 1 19:44

But does Walmart make you look better?

Speaker 3 19:48

No, yeah, there's one. And again I just said I'm a wall, I shot at Walmart, totally yeah, but it's not a brand in the sense that you people don't go and identify with it. Where Nike people identify with an Nike, yeah, and I get, and I get there's different kinds of products sold because, like, walmart isn't necessarily selling Walmart brand Closure, I mean they do have some Walmart brand, but you know so obviously it's a retail store in that sense where they're bringing in other companies to there. So like there's that sense of it. But again, costco does the same thing, but Costco has a brand.

Speaker 1 20:29

I Think this goes back to. I've said this a handful times on the, on the podcast before. I've quoted this quote that I do not know when it's from, so I would love somebody to Finally correct me and I also want somebody to prove me that I didn't come up with this, because I have this like battle between like did I come up with this quote? Because I think it's awesome If I did, but I don't think I did. Pretty sure I read it somewhere and I'm pretty sure that I always, before I quote this, say the same thing. People don't share Good things. They share what makes them look good, and you can probably associate this To this discussion. Right, from a branding perspective, people don't associate a brand that doesn't make them look good. They don't identify with a brand, even if they might be a user of that brand. They don't outwardly identify with that brand unless it makes them look and Feel better. Yeah, costco.

Speaker 3 21:25

Generally speaking, yeah. Costco because it's got the Exclusivity piece to it of the membership of the great deals, so you feel like you're getting a bargain, like you said it is the same.

Speaker 1 21:35

It's probably I've never priced it out, but you're probably right when you're talking about buying in bulk apples to apples like your pricing wise is probably pretty similar, you know, because because Walmart also carries high-end stuff like walls, walmart also carries prime and You're gonna buy that same price. In fact, if you were to buy a pack of prime at Costco versus Walmart, you're gonna get better prices at Costco most likely.

Speaker 3 22:02

Yeah, in bulk, right, in bulk exactly.

Speaker 1 22:04

So that's interesting so why did?

Speaker 3 22:08

why does this conversation matter, though? It's because I think Brands have a hard time accepting who they are. Yeah, walmart knows what Walmart is, and they always have. Yeah, walmart is not trying to be your Gourmet, high-end grocery store. What are they trying to be? They're trying to be reliable, reliable, low price. Yeah, that's all. Like that's their entire ethos, like they don't care about being the sexy Brand I mean. Maybe that will change and you know they're trying to spiff it up a little bit with their rebranding.

Speaker 1 22:52

But yeah, and with their kind of like competition against Amazon, yeah, they're trying to Kind of well, they now have a marketplace right that they've rolled out that, apparently, is growing pretty quick.

Speaker 3 23:01

So so, yeah, but again going back to that, like Walmart knows what Walmart is like. They're not trying to be something, they're not, so why not lean into it? So they just lean. They leaned into it and they grew into becoming one of the biggest American companies of all time. Yeah, this goes back to and on the flip side, nike is Is not selling the cheapest shoes, one on an apple is not selling the cheapest computers, and they both grew it to be the biggest Leaders in their space and companies in American history too.

Speaker 1 23:32

Well, and something that's interesting about Nike is I think Nike understood what they were and what they weren't. When, back in 2017, I think it was Nike pulled back from hard goods.

Speaker 3 23:44

The other golf clubs and yeah, golf clubs, baseball bats.

Speaker 1 23:48

You know, I think they even had Nike weights. You know like they did? They were trying to get into this. You know, hey, we do athletic wear and athletic clothing, so why not create products that you know? And they decided to pull back and say we're not gonna do that stuff anymore. Shoes will create golf polos, we'll create golf shoes. We're not gonna create golf balls anymore. We're not gonna create golf clubs anymore. We're not gonna create golf bags anymore.

Speaker 3 24:20

And I like their golf balls to lean into and it's not because people weren't buying those things. They were. I don't know if they're super profitable in those things, but they're a good question.

Speaker 1 24:30

They were selling, yeah. So here's a question for you does the Customer to find the brand or does the brand to find the brand? Well, you're just asking the age question of what is that?

Speaker 3 24:44

The death of the author or where is the death of the author?

Speaker 1 24:49

I've never heard that question before. I Believe and trust you that it is question. Abby looks like an.

Speaker 3 24:58

AP student. I bet she took AP.

Speaker 1 25:00

English. I never took a single AP course.

Speaker 3 25:02

Am I right, abby, you didn't take AP English.

Speaker 2 25:08

No, I did score 34 on my English, though I.

Speaker 1 25:13

The what is on the ACT just by on accident. What did you? What was your overall score?

Speaker 2 25:19

20.

Speaker 1 25:21

What was yours Mine? Yours is pretty good.

Speaker 3 25:24

It's not good, I mean it's 26.

Speaker 1 25:27

That's pretty good, I got 19 so.

Speaker 3 25:29

I mean, it's pretty good for the circumstances in which I took the test, sure, and the fact that I was a very, very absent and poor student.

Speaker 1 25:39

Okay, moving forward. Sorry, moving on to this, you were saying death of the author. I said I have no idea we're talking about.

Speaker 3 25:45

Yeah, read it, abby.

Speaker 2 25:47

I looked it up. It says the death of the author is a literary theory that argues that the meaning of a text is not determined by the author's intention, but rather by the reader's interpretation.

Speaker 1 25:58

I understand what you're saying now, yeah, so what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3 26:02

There isn't an answer. Okay, because it's. It's reciprocal.

Speaker 1 26:10

So what do you say to brands then? Because it's a relationship okay, okay.

Brands and Teenagers

Speaker 3 26:14

So so I was actually just thinking about Teenagers. So teenagers are super awkward Like, especially once they hit 13 middle school, 13 to 16 Very awkward right.

Speaker 1 26:31

Yeah, that's middle school right, pretty much like 12 to is that middle school? Yeah, it's like 12 to 14 15. I think.

Speaker 3 26:39

I don't know. I graduated when I was 17. So, like that, I Was a young for my you're a youngster.

Speaker 1 26:45

Yeah, nonetheless.

Speaker 3 26:47

Yes, awkward say that was a lot of high school.

Speaker 1 26:50

I get it. Yep, awkward stage, so awkward stage.

Speaker 3 26:53

So when we talk about brands and their awkward stages, it's really an identity crisis. So when a brand is not hitting the mark, I think it really comes down to more of an identity crisis than anything else. And that's the same thing with teenagers right Confidence is exuded when somebody knows who they are.

Speaker 3 27:15

Mm-hmm and so teenagers have a hard time being confident because they don't know who they are. So they fake it, they go all out and extreme in certain ways, yeah right, or they withdraw, yeah, and then eventually it all kind of like simmers down and comes down to like an average, like a later in life.

Speaker 1 27:32

This is just who you are.

Speaker 3 27:33

Yeah, they accept it. Brands, I think, need to understand that you, you go through the same growing pains as a brand, where you think you know who you are Right. Teenagers think they know who they are sure and they're so wrong. I mean, I go back and think about what I thought about myself as a 15 year old.

Speaker 1 27:52

What were you what? What was you? Were you as a 15 year old? I don't know. You don't remember what your brand was, what you were trying to make it. I was a sophomore. I remember mine very deliberately and that's why I'm like smiling about it. I wore a lot of sweats, because it's nothing to who I am now. I was way, way emo.

Speaker 3 28:12

Are you like screamo?

Speaker 1 28:13

screamo music. Love me, some screamo music really. Yep. Shopped at Lucky Women's With my pants to get my pants Lucky Women's yeah, the Lucky Women's section, because they didn't have skinny jeans back then. So I got women's jeans at Lucky. That's what I wore. Did you comb your hair?

Speaker 3 28:35

down. That's who I was RIP. Yeah, rip to emo Trev but I was referring the hair.

Speaker 1 28:45

Yeah, I think I think I had some emo hairdo as well, really, yeah, oh yeah, like I died, I would dye it black, like jet black. I had a little emo face. You may not be able to see it, but that's who I thought I was. Yeah, and I, but, but I love your super emotionally, but I loved sports and pained you know what I mean Like I didn't feel any of those things, but I love like I wanted it, I wanted it, but I and I like I was almost embarrassed that I like was more athletic and loved sports.

Speaker 3 29:23

You were embarrassed of sports not a little interesting.

Speaker 1 29:26

This is probably like 14. Yeah.

Speaker 3 29:30

Did you know you were a fruit Booter, weren't?

Speaker 1 29:32

you, yeah, but then I turned skateboarder you know?

Speaker 3 29:34

Sorry, that's a derogatory term now.

Speaker 1 29:36

Is it really fruit Booter? Fruit Booter was rollerblades just kidding, I like rollerblades.

Speaker 3 29:42

We're cool, they call it fruit.

Speaker 1 29:43

Oh, that's probably why maybe fruit Booters like Is that because like gay and fruity is? And did skateboarders give?

Speaker 3 29:51

fruit Booter? I honestly don't know.

Speaker 1 29:53

I just never even thought about it until you said that could be derogatory. I have no idea, I don't know. We apologize. If it is probably is, yeah, but Sorry go on.

Speaker 3 30:04

Yeah, me is 15. I was, I don't know, I had a really strange Upringing. Yeah, not strange in like my family dynamic, just strange that I did a lot of different weird things, yeah, from tap dancing to piano, to football, to Like everything new. Well, diverse Childhood yeah, I was very well rounded. Yeah, amazing, yeah, okay, so sorry, we're talking about like nowhere.

Speaker 1 30:33

so brands and Brands and knowing your identity, identity, identity crisis.

Speaker 3 30:39

Yeah, so you need to know who you are as a brand and then that grows over time. So if you think about, you know let's go into like marriage therapy here or couples therapy. Okay, when, when you meet somebody and you get married or you form a long-term relationship, you two are not the same people 10 years later.

Speaker 3 31:01

Mm-hmm correct, mm-hmm, because you both have now influenced each other in different ways. Yep, to grow into different kinds of people. Yep, for better or for worse. Sure it's the same concept with a brand. So it's not like I don't believe in the philosophical debate of like the death of the author, for example, where the interpretation therein lies completely with the beholder. What it is is it's a reciprocal relationship that grows over time, that is influenced by both parties. Yeah, right, because, again, for a healthy relationship, you can't let the other person always dictate what you are, mm-hmm, you have to have some I Identity, some foundation. Sure you can't just be like whatever that person says and like you're always trying to be something different. Yeah, because if you do that then you'll never be anything right.

Speaker 1 31:51

And they won't even like you.

Speaker 3 31:51

Yeah, like if you're trying to always be what that person loves, you're, probably they're not gonna really like you very much. Yeah, again, going back to that idea, I think it's important just to remember that it's a it's a reciprocal, ongoing relationship. But how can you use psychological Poli systems to maybe strengthen that or make that happen faster with your customers? While going back to college football, right, and going back to Costco, there are ways to think about this to help create Exclusivity or brand or personal identity that's wrapped up in your brand. Okay, it's college football. I mean, that is people's identity and like they identify as a fan of those teams, like it's a part of who they are. Yeah, and you can do that as well as a company if you know what, what triggers to pull.

Speaker 3 32:51

Got any good examples Um? Yeah, yeah, there's a few examples out there, I guess, right off the top of my head. Let's talk about an obvious examples apple. Okay, so what is the trigger that apple pulls to make people invested in their brand and identify as, like you know your question that you asked? That clip has 350,000 views right now. Mm-hmm, which is the clip was? Which was the?

Speaker 1 33:25

question was would you use your. Clip was, which was the question was would you? Take 100 grand to never be an apple user again.

Speaker 3 33:34

Yeah, and everyone's like gamifying, that well, you can actually just buy used ones.

Speaker 1 33:40

Well, in this hypothetical situation you can't yeah, this is a, what this is a Would you rather guys? Yeah this isn't uh you don't gamify, would you rather? No, has anyone ever played this before? So don't say that my wife would buy it for me, or my grandma would get it for me, or I'd buy it in India. Clearly, none of those can't do it.

Speaker 3 34:00

Clearly none of those men are married because if they were, they'd have been asked by their wife. A hypothetical situation by now. There's no way around that hypothetical situation. No, it's like would you still love me if, like I, was a clump of dirt? It's like well, you're what it's like a foot?

Speaker 1 34:21

no, Okay, so apple, what? What you were asking?

Speaker 3 34:27

me like. Well, I'd get a wizard and turn you into human.

Speaker 1 34:29

Yeah, I mean, if we're playing, would you rather, though Maybe you could?

Speaker 3 34:34

No, you can't in those situations. Yeah, I agree, there's hard cuts on those, but anyways, there's rules to.

Speaker 1 34:39

I digress.

Speaker 3 34:40

Yeah, I digress the. The thing about apple is they have created through their, through their stories and through their brand story, an identity of being creative and unique and empowering creative and unique people. I think that's how you would distill their message.

Speaker 1 35:01

Yeah.

Speaker 3 35:03

Yes, it's not even about being smart or being the best. It's Creative and unique, and we empower creative and unique people to be their best, creative, unique.

Speaker 1 35:16

And then I will maybe add one more Eat like ease, make sure life easy.

Speaker 3 35:23

Yes, well, because it just Because it's all nice and Simplified in a way simplified, modern.

Speaker 1 35:31

Everything connects to each other. Correct right.

Speaker 3 35:35

Go on. So Is that a feature or is that a benefit?

Speaker 1 35:42

What I just said, but the but the brand story right, that's how.

Speaker 3 35:47

But that's how people identify with it. They don't identify necessarily like oh, I identify because it's easy to use, yeah, sure, right, but in, but deep down it's, there's this Elitism to it. And why is there an elitism to apple? There's maybe a little sunk cost bias because it is more expensive. Yeah, I don't know if that's totally part of the elitism. Right, it's part of it. I don't know if it's totally it. I think what it really is is people think they're unique and special because they have iPhones. Yeah and Apple products.

Speaker 1 36:18

Yeah, and they just inherently think it makes them better.

Speaker 3 36:21

Yeah, right now. Is that because of what Apple's saying or because of what the customers are saying? It's clearly an ongoing thing. Yeah, like you go back to the 90s and the ads that apples was putting out.

Speaker 1 36:33

But one can influence the other Right, I think, is what you're getting at, of course it can right.

Speaker 1 36:37

So, for example, part of that influence that makes other people then so other people. Apple doesn't come out and say, if you use us, you're better than everyone else. But Apple users come out and say that, right, because it's like, hey, jack, yeah, well, apple, kind of just saving my you know language here because my son is going to listen to this hey, you're ruining our group message. All 15 of us are better than you and you're here ruining us. So Apple maybe doesn't openly come out and say, but most Apple users will. Just, they think they are better when Apple comes out and says they are better where they influence this. One of the ways. So you might have one, but one way I can think of is the price. Go back to Costco. Yeah, right, you have a membership. Why is Costco better? Why is Costco brand?

Speaker 3 37:30

It's because it's exclusive, right the exclusive membership is not expensive, but yeah you're like 50, 60 bucks or whatever a year.

Speaker 1 37:38

Yeah, you know, but Apple's prices, I mean. Anyone will say this. I still am not a massive believer in it because I just have never really really experienced using an Android or anything like that. But people will say functionality, like If you put them like head to head, the Android is gonna out perform the, the Apple iPhone. Okay, how true it is I don't know, but I've heard this from a lot of people who've gone from Apple to an Android, if you're talking head to head.

Speaker 3 38:11

I mean there's plenty of androids with better cameras, for sure. Plenty of androids with better Computing capabilities, or whatever you want to call it battery life, waterproof but you're not.

Speaker 1 38:22

But you're not buying an Android for $1,500.

Speaker 3 38:25

No. Right like this but people are willing to pay 1200 this the terabyte Pro max 15 Was 1500, I think. Now if Apple sent you a hundred of the? I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 38:41

So, so, yes, I think that that's how Apple says hey, we are better.

Speaker 3 38:44

Yeah, for sure that's part of it Pricing. But what I liked that you brought up was the blue text that goes back to death of the author, right? So a lot of people will examine stories and movies and and, from their personal bias and perspectives, will interpret things as symbolic when they're they had no symbolic meaning when the author wrote it right. Apple did not intend for the blue thing to happen, it just happened, and then they realized what it was.

Speaker 1 39:19

You don't think so? No, then why did they make it?

Speaker 3 39:21

blue. It was blue at first because it was its own network. Okay, because it was free. That was like if you go back to text messages, it cost money to text.

Speaker 1 39:29

Okay, I message did not cost money Because it did not have a wifi.

Speaker 3 39:32

Because it went through the net, the data, yep, so the iMessage network, you could send messages, and so that's why it was blue. And then, when they tied it into text messaging, that was why it's green, but I don't think they like. Originally, if I remember right, green was a symbolic of money, because it cost money to send text messages.

Speaker 1 39:56

No idea If I remember right, but that makes sense.

Speaker 3 40:01

I'll have to go back. I don't know why this is all coming to me now, because it totally diffuses my point, because I think Apple did there was some meaning to the originally like why it was green.

Speaker 1 40:12

I feel like I read something that was being to it.

Speaker 3 40:13

It wasn't exclusive, it was because it was costing you money. But then it turned into people interpreted as over time, oh, this person, green is ugly, blue is nice, yeah, and so over time. Originally it was meant to help you identify. Like it cost me money to text and over time it turned into so no, it doesn't completely diffuse my point. They meant something it didn't really turn out to be that meaning. No one remembers it as that. People now remember it as oh, you're not like us, you're an other, yeah, oh, you're not part of my club. Like, why are you ruining my group text? So again the people took it and turned it into something different and then I think Apple started leaning on it.

Speaker 1 40:58

Yep, and there's some situations as well, with brands, where your life as a brand owner might evolve. So, let's say, you create a business around a specific problem that you're experiencing, and that product that you create solves that problem and then ends up solving hundreds of thousands of other people's problems too, because you're just like we're just like everyone else. We get sick, people get pregnant, people want to get into fitness, and you know there's these things. What do you say to these people who start a business? They build a brand and then, like you said, over time, 10 years after you're married, you are not the same person, right, even because, just as you get older and you have kids, that changes your life. You're married to somebody who is different, and that changes you, hopefully for the better. What happens, though, when a brand owner's life changes and they no longer fit the ethos of their brand? Have you seen this happen? A lot, right, and they then want to change.

Brand Identity and Customer Engagement Evolution

Speaker 3 42:20

Well, especially in that like one to 10 million range right, because they can skyrocket, because they put a lot of personal investment and thought and it was very, it was like a personal project for them. So a lot of the brand represents what they are at that time.

Speaker 1 42:37

Yeah, I think Corey from Taft kind of chatted about this a little bit. You know he talked about Taft. If you haven't listened, this is an episode where Taft is a like high-end men's shoe company and he started with socks and started to create boots like shoes and boots and then started to create some like really fun patterns and those became his best selling shoes. But he kind of announced on the podcast that was not for me. Like the brand evolved into something that it wasn't, like I wasn't designing those shoes for me.

Speaker 3 43:12

Yeah, because they kept serving the people that were most engaged?

Speaker 1 43:15

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 43:17

And they wanted those styles because they were hard to find.

Speaker 1 43:19

Exactly yeah.

Speaker 3 43:23

Because, yeah, I think that's an important thing to remember. I think what's tough for a business, especially a growing business, is separating the identity of yourself and the company.

Speaker 1 43:38

Yeah.

Speaker 3 43:38

You know the company. Going back to a teenager, one of the hardest things for a teenager to do is compartmentalize different aspects of their life. You know you can be and act differently in different situations and it doesn't make you any less of that person. Yeah, it doesn't make you any less of that person and it also doesn't make you a bad person. And it also doesn't mean anything on a deeper level other than you will behave differently in different situations.

Speaker 1 44:07

Yeah.

Speaker 3 44:08

It doesn't make you a two-face.

Speaker 1 44:10

Yeah, I think it's a good lesson, though, because you're 100% right. I think what's interesting and I'm glad you brought up that this happens oftentimes in this like one to 10 million dollar range, maybe even up to 20 million, right, but I think that there's such power in a founder making their business around their identity. There's a ton of power in it because and that's all anyone's talking about right now.

Speaker 1 44:36

Founders have to be in front of the camera because you can talk and you can go, take people through the journey and everything about like you're solving problems that you're experiencing in your life most of the time, whether that be like an actual problem solution product or it's something like hey man, I couldn't find a great white t-shirt and so I created my own because I love t-shirts and the way they fit, like that's not a big problem, but you're, it's something that you're dealing with in life, so it's like there's a lot of beauty in that, but then there's a lot of potential problems that can come from that because, like you said, it's not the. Does the author shape the story or does the reader shape the story? What ends up happening is it's both right, in the beginning the author does or, in this case, at the beginning the brand did, but then, as the brand continued to go on, the community and the customer started shaping something a certain way. And if that starts to differ slightly from what your original thought process was here, can you be okay with that and still operate and maintain and grow this business and become a businessman or woman? And what the goal of a businessman is is to grow the business, is to scale a business profitably?

Speaker 1 45:57

Right Is okay, let me pivot. This is going in a direction I do not want it to go in, because it's not who I am. Let me make a change. And we see that happen all the time, and oftentimes, the moment you turn on the readers, the brand users, into something that they've expected, that can be a death sentence for a lot of businesses. Yeah, I can, because you have to look at it that way, right, and I'm glad that we're getting here which is community doesn't fully define it, nor does the brand fully define it, but each one are going to do it at certain levers. But one thing is you can't ever turn on them.

Speaker 3 46:49

No, you can't turn on them and then you have to go back to, like, what is the brand's identity Right? So we're not saying that your brand should change its identity completely just because your audience is slightly changing. Yeah, that's not necessarily what we're saying. But what we are saying is that if you don't have a firm foundation of what the brand identity is and separating that from your own and you know, sometimes it's parallel and synonymous and that's great but, yeah, you're gonna lose touch with people because you have to evolve with them over time and that doesn't necessarily mean telling different stories, it's just Changing the way you engage with those people.

Speaker 3 47:27

Yeah, and I, that's something I was actually pondering about as I was playing the banjo the other night. Sometimes I do some late-night banjo sessions, ponder about brands, ponder about brands. But what's interesting about instruments and music I think this is a good lesson for everyone to learn is that, playing this banjo, there's five strings. On this banjo, you can rearrange how the strings, you can rearrange the tuning if you want. I play in what's called double C and claw hammer style, but Most songs and this is true across every genre most songs are like a collection of I Don't know, maybe like five or seven chords, and that's it. It's just how you rearrange them.

Speaker 2 48:22

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 48:23

And you can go to pop. I mean, pop songs are all the same beat. Yep, you know they utilize the same chords for the most part and it's just how you rearrange them. And I think too many times, as marketers, you look at the instrument you're playing, which is the mess I mean. So what? What meal instrument are you playing? Is you have your chords right? How you create music and connect with people is through your message and through creative and right through the branding and through organic, whatever it is that you're putting out there the copy, the imagery. Instead of just rearranging the notes, you're trying to find a whole new instrument.

Speaker 1 49:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3 49:04

When in fact it's like it's the same instrument, it's just you got to rearrange the notes, and in a new, different, creative way, but the instruments not changing, like people haven't changed. Yeah, the way they're engaging with you might change, the trends might change, but people don't change. So what they care about and what they want at a deeper level isn't really changing. Sure, from generation to generation, how they engage with it changes slightly.

Speaker 3 49:31

Yeah but that all goes back to your identity, like you can't just throw away your instrument and go get a new one Just because you don't feel connected to that anymore and the identity.

Speaker 1 49:42

We I think we established this last may not last podcast, but two podcasts ago, where we did talk about Matt Reif. I Think the identity in this case is the overall message. Remember that's that's kind of what we came to the conclusion, like the reason why Taylor Swift was successful from going from country To pop to pop because she didn't really change her message, right. So those same people who could listen to pop in country, right, who listened to country, can also listen to pop and hear what she's saying.

Speaker 1 50:13

Oh yeah, right, whereas we kind of talked about, matt Rife could potentially try, like he could potentially be alienating, alienating his audience.

Speaker 3 50:21

Yeah, and for the record, we're not like calling for his cancellation.

Speaker 1 50:25

No, not at all. Yeah, I think a lot of people people took it in the way that Like we were offended by the joke.

Speaker 3 50:30

Yeah, yeah, no. No, it's not my job to get offended by the joke. It was just to point out that, from a marketing perspective, he Damaged and I am for these people and not for those people. Yeah, or at least not totally for these people.

Speaker 1 50:47

Yeah, he didn't see it, as I'm not for these people. He just said this is the biggest career move of my entire life is meant for the people who are not my main audience. Correct is essentially what he said.

Speaker 3 50:58

And so we'll see how that works out, because sometimes guess what a fork in the road can turn out great for people.

Speaker 1 51:04

Yeah. Or if you don't, a lot of times it doesn't work, yeah. Or if you don't care about growth, Right and if you want the identity to be your identity and you want that always to be there. Then you can make these big changes and just understand that there could be Financial consequences and there's artistic expression here, yeah, right.

Speaker 3 51:27

So like it's not necessarily a business decision, totally Whoops. But no man, I think. I think it's really important to have these conversations, because what is a brand? Right? You go back to Walmart, like, does Walmart have a brand? I mean I'd love to hear what other people think like, do they actually have a real brand that you identify with? I Say most people say no. It's a good question. Like, think about airlines. I think people identify with Delta. Do people identify with Southwest the same way they identify with Delta? Or or Southwest, just the cheap version. Oh, it's cheap and I use it, but I'm not a Southwest guy?

Speaker 1 52:06

I would think so. I mean, based off of the conversations I have. I yeah, you don't. You don't hear too many people talking about how they're Southwest people.

Speaker 3 52:15

But you do hear people talk about their Delta cards and words and miles, yeah, always.

Speaker 1 52:20

But once again, people talk about it because that you look and feel good when you have those upgrades. It's a little more expensive. Yeah, you look and you feel good when you get upgraded to first class. Yeah, you know, or get to go into the Sky Club or get to go into the, but there's that exclusivity, right. Once again, you identify, you outwardly, express the brands you identify with when they make you look better.

Speaker 3 52:46

Airlines are so funny. To me it's just buses, just buses in the sky, just circulating the same air. Yeah, like just the exclusivity, just the it's just, it's just funny to me, but that's why people think it's so cool when they fly, but that's why there's prestige to it because flying is so terrible.

Speaker 1 53:06

That's why, if you upgrade anything, it's such a miserable experience In general.

Speaker 3 53:13

Yeah, going to the airport.

Speaker 1 53:16

Checking in, going through security, having to get there three hours early. I mean, everything is so much more than that. Everything is such. Parking, everything, getting to your terminal, everything is so painful baggage claim but there's nothing pleasant about it. Flying 30,000 feet up in the air in a metal box just thinking about how you could die at any second. The air, you know it's like, everything about flying, is miserable. So you, you alter that situation, what like a little bit. So, for example, I'm a big Delta guy. I have the points, I get the benefits. So to me, the reason why Delta's awesome is because I grew up traveling. My dad would get me to the airport three hours before our flight and we just sit in these crap chairs, right for three hours and you're just like dad.

Speaker 1 54:04

Come on, it was like. Well, just in case, just in case we can't be late, yeah, like you miss a flight and you're screwed, you know. But now me, when I travel, I don't get to the airport sooner than I mean at most. At most I'm there 40 minutes early.

Speaker 3 54:24

Salt Lake is easy, though you know but.

Speaker 1 54:26

But it's more like 25, 30 minutes.

Speaker 1 54:28

Yeah because Delta has gotten me through. I get through quicker, I Know that I have a seat saved. I, if I get there 40 minutes early and I get through ticketing and baggage, and all that in five minutes I can go to the Sky Club and I'm sitting in a on a jitter cat on a couch, versus you know. So that's why I think it works really well and people identify from a branding perspective, because traveling is so painful that you just you know, even if that means you get well it's no doubt that the experience is better, right.

Speaker 1 55:04

Yeah.

Speaker 3 55:05

There's no doubt about that. But there's also the exclusivity of it being more expensive. The membership 100%, going back to the Costco.

Speaker 1 55:12

Yeah, cuz I have to pay for those cards that I have.

Speaker 3 55:14

That get me the points like I got a, you know so how does a brand implement this idea of Branding and their organic strategies and paid strategies? I Mean.

Speaker 1 55:28

We talked a lot about. Price is one of those things, right?

Speaker 3 55:31

I want to give an example of that. We consult with a brand where, after doing a bunch of user surveys or customer surveys.

Speaker 1 55:40

Which brand you're talking about?

Speaker 3 55:48

We discovered that the reason why people buy with this brand has nothing to do with pricing at all. Yes, okay, it's a clothing brand. Yes, a woman's clothing brand. Nobody cares about the pricing. People are buying because of the new releases and because of who she is as a person, who the founder is. Yes, so they're not buying because of the price, and so a big question that that brand's gonna have to ask themselves over the next six months is what do we do with this information like? Because, guess what? Their best acquisition days have nothing to do with sales. Their best acquisition days actually have more to do with their new releases and their their products. Right? So what is their identity? They're not a cheap fast fashion brand. In that way, they are a I Would identify them as a first mover Clothing boutique. That's what they are.

Speaker 3 56:51

For smoother with limited for these, for their core audience, which is a specific type of woman with somewhat limited stuff as well.

Speaker 1 56:58

Right, because they'll sell out of that.

Speaker 3 57:00

Yeah, they might not, and they're not always restocking it, no, so that's also a exclusivity, the exclusivity piece right, and so they're gonna do some thinking, and you know about how do we amplify that message instead of Thinking about hey, you know what is black Friday anymore? For them, is black Friday that great like it was? Black Friday is good for them, but it's not like it is for other brands. Yeah, like. Their best months are have nothing to do with big sales. Generally speaking, their best months, profitably speaking, have to do with new releases.

Speaker 1 57:37

And probably maybe some seasonality stuff. Yeah, right for seasonality from a weather perspective, not seasonality from a sale perspective.

Branding and Profitability in 2024

Speaker 3 57:45

Yeah, just you know, yeah, a Parallel in general, yep, yeah, and so again, you know, love it. What is their identity and how do they implement that? Well, they already do a great job of implementing this on the organic side the way they create Content, the way they connect, the way they get user feedback and they interact with their customers on social media. They're always having that reciprocal Conversation, always, always, always, and so they do an amazing job of branding in that way. And so now it's how do you amplify that message?

Speaker 1 58:20

Yeah.

Speaker 3 58:22

And so I mean there's a, there's a few other examples too, right? So another example is a men's clothing brand where Everyone thought they were buying for Specific reasons so around, like eco friendliness. That was kind of the big, that was the big value prop that started them off. But then it turned out that people actually identified with them because of the utility of their clothes.

Speaker 3 58:53

Yeah, so how useful their clothes actually were, doing the things that they wanted to do they were supposed to do yeah being in the outdoors, yeah, and so this brand just increased their pricing and they're not running as many discounts, and yet they're still buy it. They're more profitable than ever because it's become.

Speaker 1 59:14

Even though it's a clothing brand, it's almost somewhat of a problem solution Because of the utility it's all about utility. I can't find a pant that does XYZ in this environment. This pant does. It fits what I need. So giving me a 30% discount isn't gonna make me more inclined to buy it, because I was planning on buying it. Anyways, because it's unique, yeah, yeah product.

Speaker 3 59:35

And I think this is gonna be the conversation I have in 2024 Inflation is not. It's slowing down, but it's still above where it needs to be. So I think in 2023, a lot of brands are starting to realize that, just like discount giving Doesn't necessarily help you, sometimes it can hurt you. Yeah, your profitability goes down because your margins go down and you're still maybe covering the cost of shipping. There's other costs involved on the back end and you run these big sales and do those customers come back, or do they not? Is it worth it to run big sales and how do you want to identify as a brand? Again, going back to identifying as a brand, sales aren't bad or good. I'm not saying that. It's not a moral question or if or statement.

Speaker 3 1:00:25

It's just simply Are you using them in the right ways and are you actually making people identify with you in the right?

Speaker 1 1:00:32

ways. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 1:00:34

Because profitability is gonna be the theme in 2024 and I I will bet you you will start seeing a lot of brands Shrink away from big discount givings.

Speaker 1 1:00:45

Yeah, and, and massive revenue growth For the sake of profitability.

Speaker 3 1:00:51

Correct.

Speaker 1 1:00:53

Which is super, super important contribution margin Understanding what your profitability is is huge and is and that's a whole Another discussion we will maybe cover in a another episode. That will be a little bit less, maybe a little bit a little dry, but it's very important and intense, but we'll make it. We'll make it. We'll make it fun. Yeah, we'll make it chipper.

Speaker 1 1:01:23

Yeah, I'll bring in my dog and my banjo couple toss, a couple you know Off-color jokes in there. Yeah, maybe people sweat a bit. Yeah, and I'll bring in my dog in my banjo.

Speaker 3 1:01:34

No, yeah, no dogs. Yeah, we'll bring in chewy, no dogs. It will be great. Well, he'll be right here.

Speaker 1 1:01:41

He'll bark the whole time, oh well.

Speaker 3 1:01:44

He only barks at dogs. He does not bark at people ever. But I'll bring in a harmonica and we'll get him now.

Speaker 1 1:01:52

Does he do that?

Speaker 3 1:01:55

All dogs howl with our harmonica.

Speaker 1 1:01:57

Is that true?

Speaker 3 1:01:59

So far in my very limited testing of the five dogs I've lived and owned, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:02:06

It is well. I think there's a good place to end.

Speaker 3 1:02:09

Yeah, we'll do it. We'll do a little fireside campfire chat next time.

Speaker 1 1:02:17

Yeah, I like that. We also need to do a Q&A too. We're gonna get those Q&As. Just know, if you're following me at the Trevor Crump, I'm gonna start asking for Q&As so we can do live Q&As. Maybe not live, maybe live. Hmm, we'll start answering. We'll answering questions. So you gotta follow me, yeah, to see when I ask Cool, okay, all right, everybody. Thank you so much and we'll see you guys next Tuesday. Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:02:53

Every Tuesday.

Speaker 1 1:02:56

Thank you so much for listening to the unstoppable marketer podcast. Please go rate and subscribe the podcast, whether it's good or bad. We want to hear from you because we always want to make this podcast better. If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback, please go follow me and get in touch with me. I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and TikTok. Thank you, and we'll see you next week. You