SPEAKER_01: 0:00

End of the day, nobody knows who you are and they don't care.

Mark: 0:03

You got to give them reasons to believe to care. People spend their times on the little screens, not the big screens. It just felt like just the last gasp of like, we're the biggest.

SPEAKER_01: 0:12

You're not anymore. Most brands, they're portraying themselves versus what is the customer's feeling? How is this going to help the customer?

SPEAKER_03: 0:18

The standing out part has a lot less to do with the brand and the experience is everything with the brand.

Mark: 0:22

Don't get so focused on this idea that like you have to have this perfectly cohesive experience across every medium when no one even knows who you are. Like you're just trying to get people to say, Oh, that's interesting. And I'm actually not convinced that the ads are worse. I just think human behavior has changed.

SPEAKER_03: 0:38

Yo, what's going on, everybody? Welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. With me, as always, is Mark Goldhart, my co-host and companion. How are you, sir?

Mark: 0:50

Companion feels a little too intimate, but I think that we deserve that. Yeah, we can say we can say companion.

SPEAKER_03: 0:57

Every time we travel, we share the same hotel room.

Mark: 1:00

We do.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01

Not the same bed, unfortunately.

Mark: 1:04

Unfortunately, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06

I would say we've been doing this since 2015 together, dude. That's true. We're on 11 years. I've been married to my wife five years longer.

Mark: 1:20

Um I have been married to my wife the exact same amount of time. I've known my wife that amount of time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25

I'm just saying priorities.

SPEAKER_03: 1:27

I think I think that saying companion is just fine.

Mark: 1:31

And we have never hung out at each other's houses.

SPEAKER_03: 1:34

Really? You've come and worked at my house.

Mark: 1:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:37

But we've never hung out. We need to have you over for a little barbecue. A little barbecue and a swim.

Mark: 1:44

That's not a that wasn't a complaint.

SPEAKER_03: 1:47

No, no, it's very true. We've talked about this before. Like, you know, we're business partners. We have a very good relationship because sometimes. And I would call you my friend as well. I would hope you would. I would consider you one of my greatest friends. I would as well. But yet we are the greatest to hang out. We are the greatest, bestest of friends that never hang out. We're besties that don't hang out. So the therapy session. And that's a relationship right there, if you ask me.

Mark: 2:12

Well, listen. Well, the same way I don't think couples, like if you're married to someone, you don't have to have like everyone says you have to have the same hobbies. I don't believe in that. I actually think it's good that you have separate hobbies. I think it's good that like a wife can do her thing. Like my wife dances. I will not be going to a dance class with her. Even though I took tap dance with her.

SPEAKER_03: 2:32

If she asked you, would you? If she asked you, would you? Yeah.

unknown: 2:35

Yeah.

Mark: 2:35

But she likes to like go do a ballet class and like have her little time.

SPEAKER_03: 2:41

See, I like more hobbies with my wife. We do have very separate hobbies, which is great.

Mark: 2:44

But I want to see I like to go to Pokemon card stores and buy Pokemon cards with my boys. You know, she's not into that.

SPEAKER_03: 2:51

We got to introduce our guests. We've like gone into tangents. Let's do it. And we have this like third voice talking over here. We're excited for this guest. Yeah, very exciting guest. So if you're hearing little giggles over here, um we've got Blake Brown, uh, the head of brand at Kuru Kuru Footwear. Uh Kuru Footwear is a shoe company that is focused on improving um shoe foot pain. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. How did I do? No, it was fine. That was great. Yeah. We're hired. Yeah. Yeah. We're hired. We get it. We get the brand message. Here's your scope. Here's the scope. Yeah, head of brand. Uh former former uh brand guy over at uh True Classic Tees and Kizak, yes? Yeah. Yeah. And now you're at Kuru. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_01: 3:33

Yeah. So I've been in uh trained design in design. I've been a designer for, I don't know, 20 years. So I've kind of moved up my up the ranks for the 20 years of I'm kind of insatiable about learning new things. And so it wasn't just always designed. I got into motion graphics, I got into cinematography, I got into packaging, I got into all these things because I was obsessed about experiences, right? And so it kind of led the playing field for me personally as I got to the stages that I'm at. And half of it's luck, half of it's hard work and talent. And so for me, it's mostly just about like, you know, I worked at HP, I worked at all a couple boutique agencies, I worked at, you know, Chiat Day in LA and uh freelance for Ogilvy in Chicago. So I was kind of just like, what any ways I can learn to do new things or learn to like express the creativity? That was kind of my number one thing. Nice for for me.

SPEAKER_03: 4:32

So very cool. Yeah. And what are you doing now at Kuru? Like, what's your main mission at Kuru?

SPEAKER_01: 4:37

So right now is trying to, you know, footwear is probably one of the hardest games to play, you know, because it's just really saturated with the Nikes, the New Balances, the on-running, the this brand, the that brand, whatever, right?

SPEAKER_03: 4:51

Well, and there's a lot of trust, I feel like, that goes into a like a shoe brand. So like whereas like a clothing boutique, it's really easy for a no-name clothing boutique to break through. Oh, totally. Because like you don't need a lot of trust in a t-shirt. Yeah, totally. But a shoe, yeah, I figured.

SPEAKER_01: 5:05

Yeah, and I think a shoe that has a perfect, there's a lot of similarities with with uh creating category, right? And so with footwear, there's not a lot of opportunities to create categories. And so specifically at Kizzik, you know, uh, you know, when Alex brought me on at Kizzik, it's like the shoes weren't for me, but I saw the potential of what this could be. I was like, I haven't seen anything like this in footwear in forever, right? And so for me, I saw that opportunity and excitement around creating a category. And we were lucky enough to be able to create that category. Obviously, now with other competitors trying to get into that space and you know, sketchers and and so forth, but I think we were able to create a category that is could be ownable. So same thing with Kuru now is similar thing, but with a different reasoning behind it, right? Because the whole preface of shoes, most people don't understand that shoes inside of the shoe are pretty much flat. Yeah, you know, most brands give you these flimsy paper fabric, uh uh insole type of thing. And so with us, we actually have technology in the shoe because most people don't realize that your heels are round, but their shoes are flat. So when you put our, you know, your round heel into a flat shoe, you're just gonna be like, this is going to displace the pain throughout my foot over time, right?

SPEAKER_04: 6:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:25

And so as the older you get, you're gonna develop more planar fasciitis, uh, neuropathy, or other things like that. And so for me, is improving people's lives by a product that is that has a purpose, right?

SPEAKER_00: 6:36

Cool.

SPEAKER_01: 6:37

So it's planning try to be able to blend blend the brand in the style, yeah. Uh and then also with the function.

SPEAKER_03: 6:43

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 6:43

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 6:44

Very cool.

Mark: 6:44

Has it been surprising to you how many people will accept pain in order to wear something that looks good?

SPEAKER_01: 6:55

Yeah, you ask, you know, your wives or you know, your sisters or anybody, you know, wearing high heels.

SPEAKER_04: 7:01

I was gonna say, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:02

Historically, they'll be like, I'd rather I mean most people probably do this, be like, I will suffer through the pain because I know I look good. Yeah. Like you don't have to sacrifice, you don't need to sacrifice that. You can still have a trend right type of shoe that fits your style and your aesthetic, but then also feel comfortable all day, right? So, like if you're walking at Disneyland all day, less thing you're gonna wear is high heels. Yeah, you know, you want to have like if you're walking 20,000, 30,000 steps, you're like, I don't want to hate my life after. Yeah. So yeah.

Mark: 7:31

Because I feel like New Balance kind of went through that, right? Yeah. Like they were the kind of the old man shoe. Then they had to retell their story in a way that resonated with more people. Oh totally.

SPEAKER_03: 7:42

This podcast is brought to you by BFF Creative. BFF Creative is a software that meets services. Any marketing collateral you need, whether that's ads, emails, print designs, or social media, all you have to do is submit in a request, and one of BFF Creative's qualified designers will create a design for you and it'll be completed in two to three days. BFF Creative allows you to submit as many requests and as many revisions as you can with just one monthly fee. And the best part is that it's month to month. No contract, no hidden fees, no nothing. And if you use promo code unstoppable30, you'll get 30% off for your first month on us. Just go to bffcreative.co, pick your plan, and sign up today. Not that this is gonna be uh entirely everything we want to go into today, but I I just have to ask this because we hear this feedback all the time as a brand guy. Um people on the brand side typically, as we've worked with them, hate talking about features because they feel like it impacts the brand in a negative way because they want to show it's almost like they want a more of a visual, appealing thing to be the brand versus the this is what it does and how it fixes things. As a brand guy who is marketing literally a shoe that is primarily based around the features, right? You're I would guess, yeah, right, at Kuru. I'm not buying Kuru priority number number one for what it looks like on the outside, but for what it does on the inside, and then I hope that the outside looks good too. Yes. Is that traditionally, yes? Okay, yes. So walk me through this.

SPEAKER_01: 9:26

Yeah, so I mean, I think most brands where you kind of get you cut you kind of get caught in kind of bottom of funnel type of you know, features and benefits and things like that. But most people want to talk like I don't know, there's so many different types of messages that you can say that are gonna resonate with people, right? So it's like top of funnel, are you gonna talk about all the features, benefits, this and that? You want to have one clear message that you're trying to portray to create that mental availability.

SPEAKER_04: 9:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:56

So, how are we gonna have one message that are gonna people remove who we are and what we do? And then we follow up like why should why would they should care about us, right? What's so different about us? Because I think what most brands do is most brands they are self so self-in love with themselves, yeah, that they're portraying themselves versus what is the customer's feeling? What is the how how is this going to help the customer? So looking through the lens of the customer is because I think marketing 101 is like you are not the audience. I think you did a video once, and I I think I commented on that of like, and I struggle with this. I think most marketers struggle with this. This is not just a a standalone thing, but I think in terms of most marketers, you know, say like this is how I would perceive the brand, right? And what we should do. But does that mean it's gonna resonate with them? Probably not. Yeah, uh, majority of the time. You might get lucky here and there, but long-term wise, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 10:53

We call it marketing to marketers.

SPEAKER_01: 10:54

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03: 10:55

Very few brands are marketing to marketers out there.

SPEAKER_01: 10:59

Yeah, the feature, I mean, at the end of the day, if you like compare it a feature by feature from this brand, from like a on-running to a Nike, too, they're all gonna be semi-similar.

SPEAKER_04: 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:09

Um, you know, they're all the construction of the shoes are always pretty much the same. You might have different, you know, suede or leather or this or that, or it's like it's on par. But the bigger meaning for that brand to live is is creating a tribe around that, right? And so that's the hardest thing to do, especially like not just footwear, but yeah, unilaterally. Sure. It's really hard to do.

Mark: 11:32

But I think what you said earlier is is key when we're because you're ahead of brand. But like, what is a brand? And you you talked about how really it's what is the experience you want people to have. Because you were obsessed with giving people an experience early in your career, and that just builds into a brand. So we'd love to hear about how do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01: 11:52

Yeah, I mean, depending on who you ask, you're gonna probably get different things, right? It's like, you know, you might have some growth marketers that say it's a you know, base impressions over time, right? But it's like, no, really, what it comes down to, Marty Newmeyer is probably one of my favorite guys. He he wrote the brand gap and uh zig and zag and all these ones. He's you know, old school kind of brand guy. And which I think the biggest thing is it's the impression of the customer on how they view you, right? What is the feeling that they have around you? Like you can have a similar product, but at the same time, is like, what is that feeling that they're having and how is this product making their lives better? So to me, it's a summation of really about what is the customer's intent, like feeling about you, um, even if they've never bought it. So, like Liquid Death, for example, I love the brand. Funny enough, I've never had their product. I never, because it's a commodity. So to me, it's like, yeah, there's water, they have all these different, you know, features. But to me, I love it because you know, I've had their shirts and some of their hats and stuff, stuff like that. But to me, I've never had the product. I still love the brand.

SPEAKER_04: 13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:02

And I love how out of this world they are. And I know a lot of people use them as reference, uh, especially taking risks. Um, but I think at the end of the day, because they're looking at the category and looking at like Fujiwater, Aquafina, all these other brands, they're all saying the same thing and how they deliver it and how they express it. And they're like, F this, we're gonna still we can still sell water, but doing it a different way. Yeah. That's ownable to us.

SPEAKER_04: 13:27

Yeah. Very cool.

SPEAKER_01: 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 13:29

I love that. Yeah. We have these uh, I mean, we're performance marketers, and so like we're always having these discussions around brand. And does you know, is the performance marketing we're doing impacting the brand in a positive or a negative way?

SPEAKER_01: 13:44

You know, and so we love getting somebody who's on the other end of the spectrum here to kind of well, I think there's it's a I mean, at times I can be that guy that's kind of a little snobby at but to me, it's like remove your ego out of it. It's like what's gonna be best for the business to grow, and sometimes you're gonna have to make concessions, yeah, right? To be like, yeah, this is the most ugly ad, but most of the time the most ugly ad performs the best, right? And it depending on what stage you are, you're still irrelevant to the market. Yeah. And so it's like for us as marketers, whether you're on the brand or the growth or acquisition side, it's more about how are we gonna cut through the noise, right? How are we gonna cut through whatever platform it is, how are we gonna cut through to be like, oh wow, I didn't know this, or wow, I need to look at this, or wow, I didn't know this was a problem. Yeah, I need to, you know, and then you go down funnel and stuff like that and how you market it, right? Yeah. But I think where most brands will succeed is is yes, there's a time where how do you grow to the point where you're not solely focused on CAC only, or how do you grow organically, or word of mouth, or all these other things that are gonna, you know, you know, your ad ratios and gonna be killing you over time and your profitability and your e-biddle and all these things. So I think it depends on what stage, but I think it's just like there's a lot of things like uh that that sucked that I don't like that, but also go back to the what I said earlier about I'm not the audience sometimes, majority of the time. Yeah, but yes, it's clear. We talk about the value props, the propositions, and all these things. And it's like it worked, and that's fine. Yeah, move on, try something new. Yeah, and I think where most marketers as well is when you over-strategize or when you over like, hey, let's spend the six months and crafting everything perfect. To me, it's more about I'd rather be scrappy and try things, see if it works. And if it doesn't, try you try your hypothesis and say, like, hey, we have this simple idea. We hope it's gonna have high value. Let's try it, see if it works. If it doesn't, we learn something. Yeah, but I don't want to wait six months to get to some perfect strategy. Yeah. Because there's never a perfect strategy. Um, I think over time, depending on your scale, if you're under 50 million, you're just trying to like find your way through the muck and the mud of you know, whether you're in CPG, D2C, whatever it is, you know, you're just trying to work yourself to find what works and what doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03: 16:12

I think what I what I've come down to, like as I've had these conversations, if we've been doing as we've been doing this for as long as we've been doing this, it's like you there's two things you need to do. One, you just need to find a way to stand out, and two, you need to control the experience the best way possible. Yeah. Right. And the standing out part has a lot less to do with the brand, and the experience is everything with the brand. Totally. Right. And so at the end of the day, like you said, you you you referenced Marty Newmeyer, my favorite book I've ever read is Zag, which just explains this idea that things, in order for things to be work, they can't just be good. They also have to be different.

SPEAKER_01: 16:45

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_03: 16:46

And if they're different, they'll stand out. Yeah. Right. So you brought up like, hey, ugly ads work right now because they look different from the polished, you know, thing that everyone else is doing. And so when they see something like that, they're like, oh, what the heck? You know, like have you seen ads nowadays where people use paint? Do you remember the old the old Microsoft uh was it called paint? You know, yeah. It looks like it's from paint, and so all of a sudden somebody looks at it, they're like, What the heck? I haven't seen this since the 90s.

SPEAKER_01: 17:12

We we I mean we did something similar during Black Friday Cyber Monday where we just like, you know, this ad is ugly, but our shoes aren't. And like it's probably one of the best performing and it took three minutes to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 17:23

I love that. Yeah, that's really how you look at it. It's like, I need to get somebody to stop, yeah, and then how do I control the experience that they're going to have from website to uh the purchase experience to the time they make a purchase to the time they get it, to once they get it, what's that like? You know, obviously the product has to um speak volumes and have to it has to match their expectations or or more.

SPEAKER_01: 17:48

And another thing too is to that point is removing friction.

SPEAKER_03: 17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:51

Because there's so much added friction, especially in a, you know, they see an ad, oh, I'm interested in this, I'll go to the site. Okay, you're telling, you're trying to over-explain everything. Yeah. I'm not real, like if you get to a point where like, okay, I'm bought in, I'm gonna try these, it's building trust and credibility. Yeah. Even post-purchase as well, right? So it's like you're like, if you go through that cycle and you're like, oh, I had this terrible experience, I'm gonna call customer service. That last touch point with that customer service, if it is not amazing or great, you've ruined everything else you've done before that, right? And so that's why everything, every step of the experience has to be really fine-tuned in terms of because when when someone wants to purchase and they go through that bad experience, they're just like, well, I'm never gonna talk, I'm not gonna talk to people about this brand, or I don't want to experience this brand, I'm not gonna talk about them.

Mark: 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:45

Why would I?

Mark: 18:46

Yeah, I always say that just brand is just trust. Yeah. Like it's just the trust you've built with an audience. Yeah. And most brands get caught up. For example, polished versus unpolished. Yes. Liquid Death, whenever they have an ad, it's a polished ad. But they're just very different. Yeah. You know, it's not an ugly, they don't do a lot of ugly ads that stand out. Like I don't recall anyone, but the ones that they do that stand out are high production, technically.

SPEAKER_03: 19:16

That's what he means by I was gonna say that. When you say polished, you're saying it's a high production thing. It doesn't look like it was done.

Mark: 19:21

So, like you said, it's the the point is just being good and different. Sometimes that's an ugly ad, sometimes that's a polished or you know, high production ad. But how do you stand out? And then if you're under 50 million, you just you haven't even gotten to the point, like you haven't entered the general public consciousness. Like you're not sure.

SPEAKER_03: 19:39

There's an argument to make that under like a hundred and fifty million. Yeah. Yeah. Or even a billion, you know. When Kizak was like on the rise, rise, I remember like I was we were in California and we were I just like I'm gonna start asking people because I wanted to prove this point, you know. And so we were meeting with a ton of people. Not as a dig, no, not as a dig they're they're a dar, they were a darling in Utah, yeah, right? A hundred, you know, a a nine-figure business, which people would say they've got it together, right? You think, you know? And I we were asking everybody, we were there for like four or five days, and we were at tons of meetings, we're at Shopify events, and you know, we're asking, have you heard of Kizik? Have you heard of Kizik? And I would say 90% of the people we talked to had did not hear about it. And the we were two states over. Yeah, and the same thing with Ridge Wallets. Yeah, yeah.

Mark: 20:28

Who's who's doing like outside of our bubble? You go talk to just if I go to my family and say, Hey, do you guys know who Ridge Wallets? Like, my one brother does probably because he has one. Yeah, he was given one. Yeah. And but everyone else would probably be like, I don't what? But they're killing it. Oh, this thing. And then if you showed them the product, they'd be like, Oh yeah, I think I've seen I've had people with the oh yeah, like I've come across an ad. But they're not like, oh yeah, Ridge, this brand.

SPEAKER_04: 20:55

Yeah.

Mark: 20:56

And that's not a dig at Ridge. Like, they're killing it. They're doing great, they're doing a lot of good things. But again, don't get so focused on this idea that like you have to have this perfectly cohesive experience across every medium when no one even knows who you are. Like, you're just trying to get people to say, Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 21:15

90% of the struggle is internally, right? Is getting alignment, you know, everyone has an opinion. That is most, I mean, most people are we're all our own worst enemies. Sometimes it's me, sometimes it's someone else, sometimes it's the founder, sometimes it's this, this, and this. But the end of the day that you can't dispute is what are we doing for the customer?

SPEAKER_03: 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:36

Like who's the customer of like that we have now? Who's the customer we want in five years? What are we trying to solve? How are we going to stand out? Like, how do we Are we actually getting them to come out? Are we getting yeah? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 21:47

And are they coming back?

Mark: 21:48

Yeah.

unknown: 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 21:49

Or or if they're not coming back, if you don't have like a repeatable, are they telling other people about it? Yeah. Right.

Mark: 21:54

I've always said it's kind of like uh just telling a joke. Like some people are funny in certain moments. But if you're at a house party, like your initial interaction with someone isn't exactly who that person is on a deeper level. Oh, yeah. And that's not a bad thing. It's okay. Like everyone kind of has that introductory level or layer. And some people are a little bit more jolly in that kind of basic. I don't want to say basic, but just introductory space. And then some people are better at like, hey, once you get to know them, it's like, oh, I really like hanging out with you. You know, there's some layers here that I resonate with. Yeah. But it's hard to get to that point if if you don't have an initial, oh, that's interesting. I want to know more about this guy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:38

Well, it's the same thing with the brand. Same thing. I I mean, there's the analogy because you know, I have a music background and uh I've loved music too. It's like, what was the last time you heard of a band or music group or whatever that you're like, I gotta tell everyone I know that I think they will love it too? I I love music because very rarely now, in terms of the same thing goes with the brand, right? It's like does the the same feeling I have for music or a band be like, oh, I gotta tell my buddies about this, or I know my wife liked this kind of music. I think she'd like this, and I gotta show her. But I think most people is like the same thing with brands. It's like, oh, I gotta show you this brand that is just hilarious, or the I I thought of you, right? And so the the beautiful thing about Kizak, too, is like her word of mouth was insane. It was like 20% of I think sales at one point were I think it was more than it's probably more than that.

SPEAKER_03: 23:28

Yeah, you had to write your surveys, it was like 35% of your sales or more.

SPEAKER_01: 23:32

Because what happens is when you have that experience on the product level of like stepping into shoes, you have this immediate reaction to be like, Oh, I'm gonna think about my parents, my kids, my kids, my pregnant sister, my whoever, and you're like, Oh my gosh, I got Christmas covered, I'm gonna buy 10 pairs, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um so that's that's the beautiful thing of the extension past the post-purchase of like, you know, how's this gonna live on for as long as we can?

SPEAKER_03: 24:01

Yeah, the products, everything in that scenario. Yeah. Well, speaking of. Did you want to transition?

Mark: 24:08

There was a a big event last weekend called the Super Bowl.

SPEAKER_01: 24:14

So many home runs, I just it was amazing.

Mark: 24:22

The attention and I have some hot takes about it.

SPEAKER_03: 24:28

Let's get into it. So we would love to hear your takes about it. Yeah, yeah. If we're grading, so we were just talking about this in the office yesterday. Like the Super Bowl used to be a time where I would say you'd have 20% of the people watching it, maybe 30% of the people watching it, were like, I'm well, I was gonna say, I'm here for the game. This is cool. Like, I love football. Uh, you know, you got your or I I like the teams, and then you get like another like 50% who are like, I just like football, I'm ready for this. This is like, you know, like me, I don't I didn't care about the Patriots, I didn't care about the Seahawks, but it's a Super Bowl. General sport fans. I'm gonna watch it the same way I watched the NBA finals, the same way I watched, you know. Yeah, yeah. And then do you, but I feel like you had like 30% of people who were like, I watch just for strictly for the commercials, commercials and halftime and halftime show. Like my brother-in-law is one of those. Like the other he he he is not an athletic guy at all. And he he was the other day, I was asking, like, what's your favorite holiday? He said the Super Bowl. He said the Super Bowl is his favorite holiday because he just like loves getting together with family, eating a bunch of it's always appetizers, I feel like, usually, you know, really, you know. And he's like, and I love the commercials. That's what he said.

Mark: 25:43

Just an appetizer kind of guy, huh?

SPEAKER_03: 25:45

And I thought I did not expect that from him. That's crazy.

Mark: 25:49

Good for you.

SPEAKER_03: 25:50

Um but yeah, I feel like it's I feel like over the last five years, it has been such a bummer. Yeah. And this year to me was the biggest bummer of all bummers.

Mark: 26:01

Yeah. So the question is why? Or did any first of all, did any commercial stand out? Do you feel like there was a commercial that it well brought you in?

SPEAKER_01: 26:13

I have two that did for me that I liked. So obviously, I I thought like the Pepsi one was interesting and how they how they did it, but also it could bat b backfire in terms of using the mascot. They brought this old kind of Coke versus Pepsi back, you know, the old taste taste test. The taste test, yeah. I think back in the 90s or whatever. When 90s is that like late 90s, early 2000s, too. But using their own kind of mascot is that that is not you know trademarked or ownable, using that as a through line. I thought was interesting.

SPEAKER_03: 26:47

How is that gonna come bite them in the butt? What do you mean? Because I love I love that they brought the Coca-Cola mascot in as it like that was the one, one of the ones that stood out to me.

Mark: 26:58

It's bit a few brands in the butt when they do this. So Burger King has tried it. Uh Pepsi has tried similar things in the past. If I don't Burger King tried it with what?

SPEAKER_03: 27:07

McDonald's.

Mark: 27:08

Against McDonald's. They kind of use McDonald's branding, something about like golden arches or something. I can't remember exactly. But they've done a bunch. They've done a lot of stones. They're trying to like turn their branding and be like, oh, but us, but ultimately when you do that, you're recognizing that they're the number one.

SPEAKER_01: 27:27

The mental ability, like the cognitive load of like Pepsi, but I'm also thinking of Coke.

Mark: 27:32

Yeah. Like, oh, you're telling me that Coke is more recognized than you. And like you're kind of like using them to boost yourself up, which can be funny, but does it really build your brand in an actionable way, I guess?

SPEAKER_00: 27:48

Sure.

Mark: 27:49

So I I'd agree. I thought it was interesting, but yeah. Does a jujitsu move like that really work in the way you think it does as a marketer or as a as a company when in the minds of a consumer, they're probably all thinking at the end of that Coca-Cola.

SPEAKER_01: 28:03

Yeah. I mean, another one I think well, I'm gonna go kind of back because it's top of mind right in my mind right now is the coin uh Coinbase one was my, you know, we were at my in-laws' house, at my at my wife's parents' house, um, you know, watching the super. My wife had to go to the bathroom. Then the this Backstreet Boys like karaoke thing came on. And not until halfway through, I was like, we're all all my her whole family and us were all yelling at her because we knew she was a Backstreet Boys fan. And so we're like, Tina, come out here. But halfway through people started singing it, and at the end it was like, what is how is this relevant to what you're doing in terms of like towards the end, you're like, oh, it's this, you know, it's a karaoke type of thing. And you're like, Coinbase?

SPEAKER_04: 28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:51

What? Yeah, what what is this? What are you trying to say? Yeah. You know, it's like the one they did, I don't think it was last year, maybe the year before, when they did the whole QR code thing. I thought that was interesting. It was like it's different.

Mark: 29:03

Yeah, the QR code was interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 29:04

And you're like, oh, what is this? I'm gonna scan it. Yeah, so at least it was actionable. Yeah. With this Backstreet Boys one, it was like, oh wow. And one another thing I noticed too is like how many ballads there were in the commercial. So like Liquid IV had a toilet ballad.

SPEAKER_03: 29:19

Yeah, yeah. Um that was my that was my second one that I liked.

SPEAKER_01: 29:22

And then Manscaped, I don't know if you saw the Manscaped one. Uh huh. I like that because it was kind of disgusting because it was like body hair on the floor, and there was like they turned the hair into puppets. Oh. And that was pretty gross. Very, I thought those two were very similar to me.

Mark: 29:36

I thought that was like the most uh visually one that stood out. Yeah, yeah. Because it was gross. Yes. Um everyone hates, I I especially hate hair that's not on a body.

SPEAKER_01: 29:50

Yeah, even if it's your own.

Mark: 29:52

Hair on the ground.

SPEAKER_01: 29:52

Oh yeah, even if it's your own.

Mark: 29:54

Hate it.

SPEAKER_01: 29:55

Yeah. So I mean, there were so I mean, they're like with like the Backstreet Boys. I was like, I noticed kind of a theme for maybe five or six of them. I was like, there's music driven on a lot of them, or ballads, or yeah, try to make using music as a you know, part of it wasn't like narration only kind of thing. Um, I thought the Bud Light one was interesting as well, just cinematography-wise, of taking like the juxtaposition of these kind of like with Shane Gillis and Peyton Manning and these guys disrupting a wedding. And I thought it was interesting. I know they're trying as a brand, because of their historic or history of the last couple years been not so great. Sure. And so they're trying to rebuild that trust that was lost to their audience, right? Yeah. Am I the audience? No.

SPEAKER_04: 30:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:42

Uh, but I can see what they're trying to do get back to the roots of trying to get like, you know, you know, with post Malone and all this stuff.

Mark: 30:48

Yeah, too trying to get the bros back.

SPEAKER_01: 30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 30:50

And I feel like they've done a good job at that. I'd be curious to know what their numbers are like. I haven't looked at them since the whole issue.

Mark: 30:55

Well, their numbers aren't good because drinking's gone down. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, big time. So I got it. Like, has their has their numbers improved? Probably not.

unknown: 31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:05

When you add that variable into it.

Mark: 31:07

When you just say that the overall industry of drinking is down.

SPEAKER_01: 31:10

Yeah. But in general, like looking at the summation of what is the goal for a Super Bowl ad, right?

Mark: 31:16

Well, that's a good question. So Coinbase, I don't I think Coinbase, the goal is to legitimize your brand. And and more so legitimize your space. So it's different than you're trying to get consumers. You're trying to get people to say, Oh, they're a legitimate thing because they're in the Super Bowl.

SPEAKER_00: 31:39

Yeah.

Mark: 31:40

That's that's all their motive is. Like, I don't think they're converting anybody to go into Coinbase, but they're trying to say, hey, this is a legitimate thing. And did they accomplish that? Probably. You know, like as long as people remember it was Coinbase at the end. Yeah. End of the day is I think that's all they care about.

SPEAKER_01: 31:58

It's like any top funnel thing. It's like mental availability of like, oh, I've never heard of this brand, or I've heard of this brand. Oh, that was fun. I'm at their top of mind. So if I'm in, it's the 955 rule, right? Where it's like 95% of that people aren't going to be in your in the market that day. Some might, but I think in summation, it was like when you're shopping or whatever the product was, there's that meant available availability in their head to say, like, oh, I remember the Super Bowl ad, uh, I'm, you know, I'm gonna associate that to this purchase.

Mark: 32:31

Did you ever read Thinking Fast or Slow?

SPEAKER_01: 32:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: 32:34

Yeah, it's just repetition and availability. So the more you repeat a message, or you know, the more people see you, the more they associate you with truth in their mind, which is trust. Like, oh, that's legitimate, you know? Like that's why Coke doesn't care. Back in the day, I mean, they would spend ads everywhere. Like, you know, their label is everywhere, even though everyone's already drinking them. And the reason why is they know that number. They know like it's just like a mass equation of just making sure people see you X amount of times. McDonald's too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 33:08

Yeah. Um they're in the movies, they're in the yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:12

Which AI company won? I well, personally, for for me, I thought it was um I thought on it well Claude did a good job. But for the mass market, I don't know if it hit. The only reason I think those work, only if you've experienced using chat.

Mark: 33:31

Can you explain that a little better? So are you you're saying mass market? So So it did well hitting for the professional class.

SPEAKER_01: 33:38

Well, for people that use chat GPT, so for current users, they're using AI or chatbot or whatever it is, right? There's a lot of people using it, but the people that don't use it, they're not going to associate, oh, this other person is the respondent of like the ChatGPT response. And so I thought that was kind of pithy. But also like the time, uh, because I think it was like barely announced that ChatGPT was going to like start like advertising because they're just burning money left and right, right? And so they use that as a fuel to that fire. And so to me, for me, that hit because I've experienced that feeling using Chat GPT, um, of like being spoken to like a robot, kind of like like, that's a great idea, Blake, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, no, that's not what I asked. This is the simple thing I asked you for. You know, and I know they're trying to add this humanistic thing to it. So it's a I like the juxtaposition of putting that conversation in real life was interesting to me. Yeah. Um, but at the same time, that was for me.

SPEAKER_04: 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:43

But the people that don't that aren't, you know, I don't know the numbers, but uh, in terms of like, is everyone on Chat GPT? No. There's a certain probably a skew of audience that I think.

Mark: 34:53

I think it's super obvious that Gemini is gonna win. Yeah. From a mass appeal, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's just everyone still Googles. But that's what I was gonna say. It's just simply because of professional early adopters, you know, Claude, it's a battle between Claude and Chat GPT. I think Claude's winning. But like my mom, general people out there that are just like you're it's already built in, like you Google things, and now Google is already giving you the AI summation, like summations, and then they'll just probably get gravitated into just Gemini. That's my personal thought. But I thought the only one from like a experience perspective that drew me in was Open AI, the first person ad. So it was the like it starts with like a kid, you know, it's like this person like growing up, and it's like their hands, and they're like building things, and like they they get older and older and older, and it's like on a computer. And it was just like that was the only one that I noticed my kids. I have two boys, eight and five. It was the only one that they kind of got like absorbed into as well. Like the first person perspective was interesting. Interesting. I don't know. And I and I think that resonates with younger audiences because of video games. Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_01: 36:16

Personally. Well, this brings up another one of like the Salesforce one with Mr. Beast, where it's like that audience was teenagers. Yeah, like who are you advertising? I was like, why is Salesforce what this is weird? Yeah, why like giving away a million dollars? They're like, Matthew makes sense for you, but are you trying to get you know Slack to be Discord now? To use like, are you trying to get people to be like, oh, we're gonna get teenagers or kids that are in this Discord, you know, yeah, fandom to be like, oh, a million dollars? I'm gonna find the code, right? Yeah, so it's smart on their behalf, but it was also kind of weird juxtaposition because of Salesforce, but they're trying to target a younger audience to get more Slack users. Yeah. Or how do we get more a younger audience using Slack?

Mark: 37:03

Yeah. Also, Salesforce and Slack. There's kind of an ick factor, I think, for a younger audience. Like just the idea of a company called Salesforce. Like no young person likes sales at all or wants to be sold to, and you're trying to sell them. Like it's just a hard brand to convert young audience to.

SPEAKER_04: 37:25

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: 37:26

And totally different audience than what you've been doing. I mean, you're a B2B enterprise software.

SPEAKER_01: 37:31

How do we be relevant? Let's get Mr. Beast. Yeah. Right.

Mark: 37:33

So I yeah, that one was weird. But overall, kind of a dud across the board, but it's been a dud for a while, and I I have a hot take for that. Yeah. I love to see her. I don't know if it's because the ads are worse. And I'm actually not convinced that the ads are worse. I just think human behavior has changed. Oh yeah. That's my hot take. Like, I everyone wants to brag on like the creative and like, oh, they're just not standing out enough. And I'm like, how do you how do you stand out when you can sit on a toilet and take a dump and see 10 videos that make you laugh and mad and everything in 10 minutes?

SPEAKER_00: 38:17

Yeah.

Mark: 38:19

And then you're trying to catch their attention in a Super Bowl ad. It's like people just aren't even like people are so back and forth with their phones, anyways. I just don't think the expectation for a Super Bowl ad, for example, Coinbase. I I think the expectation has changed now. It's simply this is a repetition play. I don't know, maybe advertising, like the cost of it's gonna go down. I don't know, but I don't think the ads have gotten worse. I just think our behavior and how we consume media has changed so dramatically since 2018 that you just can't even compare the two.

SPEAKER_01: 38:56

Well, I the thing I was thinking is like if social media that as a media outlet wasn't around, would those ads now be better or worse?

SPEAKER_03: 39:06

Exactly. I think the answer is yes, right? So I agree with what you're saying because uh eight five years ago, six years ago, seeing funny things from companies almost didn't exist. Right? Oh yeah. Like everything was pretty serious from companies, and the only to place you would experience that was over the Super Bowl. Now you see funny things and entertaining things that are coming from creators and brands, like you said, you can see 50 of them in a 10-minute time frame. And so the bar has been risen because the availability of the market. Exact exactly. Yeah. Um and I won and so I I agree with you. I actually think all the AI companies won. Because it put more of a legitimate like, hey, we have the. We have the money to do this, therefore you should trust us with the things that scare you. So for the people who aren't using AI right now, it's scary. For the people who aren't putting money into certain things, Coinbase is scary, right? So I think not that not that Coinbase is an AI company, but I think the technology is. But it's an emerging technology. I think those were the ones that won from simply the okay, now I know I can trust that like it the Super Bowl's not gonna let a brand like that advertise if it's not safe for me to put my money in something like that.

Mark: 40:31

And there's gonna be huge wealth transfer, right? So Coinbase needs to be legitimate for boomers because they want they need boomers to start getting money. To get put into the crypto space.

SPEAKER_03: 40:43

Yes. So yeah, I think you're totally right. I just don't think the Super Bowl is what the Super Bowl.

Mark: 40:50

And do you want to know what it else felt like it also felt like to me, and I'd like to hear your thoughts, but it felt like the last dying breath of traditional advertising. Now, what I mean by that is it the the gap between the digital and traditional space is no longer. It doesn't I mean I don't think it's existed for a long time. But this putting this extra value on this traditional space on TV, this legitimacy has gone down so fast because of user behavior. It's just one other medium. Yeah, but people spend all their time over here, right? Like people spend their time on the little screens, not the big screens. And so that's what it felt like to me is like, oh, this is just a dying, or maybe not totally dead, but it's just it's like it's just not yeah, it's it's definitely declined. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you look at viewership numbers across the board, right? Like everything's gone down except for live sporting events, and even live sporting events over the last four years have been going down. Um, so, anyways, you look at it, and I just say that's what it felt like. It just felt like just the last gasp of like, we're the biggest thing. It's like you're not anymore. You know, the TV ads aren't the biggest thing anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 42:11

Yeah.

Mark: 42:11

I mean it's just another thing.

SPEAKER_01: 42:13

I agree with you. Um, and that's the kind of the sad part. Maybe because I'm an old traditional guy too, like there is there's a time and place for tradition, like out-of-home, you know, uh events and you know, things that are sticky that'll be memorable. Um, but I also think that with the the traditional space, it is compounded through other like digital channels, right? Where yeah, you there's 130 million people that watched the Super Bowl this last week. Okay, it's gonna this production for this commercial is gonna be between per production only is maybe one, maybe a hundred thousand to three million, right? For example. And then you have the the media buying space of that is you know six to ten million. So next thing you know it, you're just like the the ratio of people watching what it cost, the value of the cost to the availability of the ad and cutting through the noise. Impressions of it, it'd be like the mental availability for$15 million on a digital front. I mean, you could you could terrorize do a lot more you can terrorize, yeah.

Mark: 43:20

You could 20 to 50x your reach and maybe your clicks and and then actionable results too, right? Like, I mean, you can obviously and again, I'm not saying traditional is dead completely, it's just another medium, is what I'm trying to say. It's it's just not like the main space like it used to be. Like it used to be. Like, hey, if you're on TV, you're legitimate. Like it's still kind of there for the older audience to legitimize you know, like Coinbase in newer industries or technologies, but like you didn't see like Coca Cola doesn't care anymore, obviously. Like they're not really advertising in Super Bowls, like you don't really see. They're such a heritage brand too. They've been around for generations. Like, was Nike?

unknown: 44:05

No.

Mark: 44:07

But Nike does, I mean, they're on the field. Yeah. Like they just do sponsorships, but like you don't see But Coca-Cola legitimizes themselves in different ways.

SPEAKER_03: 44:16

Like I said, when was the last time you watched a movie and somebody had a Pepsi? Like it's always Coke.

SPEAKER_01: 44:21

So like that's where they'll put themselves in every TV show, in every distribution. They are the best at distribution. Where they show up. Oh, I only have this option. Well, I'm gonna go with this Coke.

SPEAKER_03: 44:33

Yeah, exactly. They're in all the McDonald's, they're in the mental villa go to a sporting event. That's Coke. Yes, very rarely is it Pepsi.

Mark: 44:41

So when it is Pepsi, ugh.

SPEAKER_04: 44:43

Yeah.

Mark: 44:44

I don't drink soda. No offense to the Pepsi people, but too sweet. Compared to Coke? Yeah. Coke's just perfect. Also, I was thinking about this after going to McDonald's yesterday. He doesn't go to McDonald's. I go to McDonald's. I don't care. I admit it. Yeah. Everyone else says it's I got no shame.

SPEAKER_01: 45:06

I got little kids. They're like, I'm too lazy to compete.

Mark: 45:08

Everyone says McDonald's is gross and yet they're I don't see any of them shutting down. No. So clearly we're all going.

SPEAKER_03: 45:14

I do think they're not doing as good. But I don't know if that's from a McDonald's perspective or from a healthy people, like kind of like the alcohol.

Mark: 45:22

Well, no, I think it's more of just inflation. Like they've ri they their prices were rising. Yeah. But dude, I had to wait. Like it was busy. We came home from skiing. Anyways, long story short, I got a Coke from McDonald's, the best soda you can possibly get. We're not gonna go into why. Oh, I'll tell you why. But it's just the perfect brand marriage. McDonald's. Right? Which bet going to collaborations? We can talk about that for for branding next. But how does Swig exist when a McDonald's Coke exists? I don't even get it. Like how you can't get better than a McDonald's Coke. It's perfect. People want to go to Swig and mix a bunch of stuff into a soda? Yeah, it's just different. I'm just saying it's crazy. That's crazy to me. It's just different, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 46:12

Yeah, why have a just a regular cloak when I put could put creamer and peaches and puree and it just makes it worse. Depending on to me.

SPEAKER_03: 46:21

Not for the majority of people, but bucko.

Mark: 46:25

Crazy.

SPEAKER_03: 46:26

Yeah.

Mark: 46:27

I was thinking about that as I was drinking that Coke. I'm like, man, this is just perfect. Yeah, I I think the lesson here is people are gonna pay$6 just to put stuff in it.

SPEAKER_03: 46:34

I think the lesson here for sure is just advertising has changed. Like I think that's the I I've been saying this for a while. Like it's never been harder. Well, in 2018 it was never easier to stand out, but never harder to start a business. Oh, totally. It's the reverse now. Yeah. In 2026, it's never been harder to stand out, and it's never been easier to start a business. Yeah. Which just means that and that compounds on the problem with start standing out. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 47:00

So I think the ability for brands to take risks, right? Yeah. Especially at that smaller under 50, uh, 50, 50 million, 150 million, whatever number you want to put towards it, yeah, is the usually internal you're your own worst enemy totally based off of what you're like, you know. I think that was the nice thing about like with Mike and Andy at at Liquid Death, they're old creative execs. Yeah. Right. And they're just like, I'm tired of this crap. I see an opportunity in this market. We're gonna take our spin on what we think as creatos and marketers, we're like, we're not, we're just gonna create something that no one else has tried to create before in in this category. Um, and obviously they get used in the same tripe of you know, the Nikes and the the this brand or that brand in terms of uh availability. But I I wish most more brands will take a risk because at the end of the day, nobody knows who you are and they don't care. Yeah, you got to give them reasons to believe to care. Yeah, to be like, oh, that was so good. It was relatable. There's there's few factor uh facts I think in terms of like great work is like, is it memorable? Is it relatable? Is it going to get me to take action to at least go down to the funnel or like, oh, I never heard about this brand, but I'm gonna share this because I thought about this person.

SPEAKER_04: 48:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 48:24

Or I'm interested in this thing.

SPEAKER_04: 48:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 48:26

Instead of being like, you're we're in the sea of sameness. It's a the millennial brand craze of the 2010 to 2018. There's a sea of sameness. Yeah. And it was just like, throw your product in the sky, have the beautiful blue sky in the background, take a, you know, it's just like I can throw any other brand. It's like, how's that gonna be a little bit more than a flat lay or here's this or who's that?

SPEAKER_03: 48:47

And now we're starting to get into the Gen Z kind of everything is looking the same, like, you know, a lot more colorful and bubbly, and like eventually that's going to start to blend in everywhere else, you know. And I think I think you nailed it on the head where brands just need to take more risks, you know. That's the word it's a different risk, it's the same thing, right? Like be different, be risky. We're we're talking one and the same here in order to stay.

Mark: 49:11

Can I even can I narrow down the scope a little bit even more? You may you have because my permission it goes back to Blake and what he was saying about the audience. The the problem with traditional is it's mass market appeal. Mass market appeal is dead, and I think that's why it it feels so lame now, is because everything is so personalized for your interests. You go to the Super Bowl and it's like yeah, oh, like this is just mass, they're trying to do mass market appeal, and it's just it's never gonna hit the same as something that's personalized for whatever unique group or subset you belong to in an audience. So the only way to take a risk is to draw the lines in your audience and say this is who we're for, this is who we're not, and then this is what we're this is what we're focusing on. So I think the next 10 years is gonna be the rise of smaller, smaller brands. Like if you can if you can really talk to these subsets of the population, not mass market appeal, you're just I think mass market appeal is gonna be really hard. Yeah. But man, you can talk to people with foot pain and you can give really good messages and say, hey, I know my demographic of foot pain is gonna be 35 to 65 plus, skewing older, but how do I make these older people feel young? Yeah. And how do I how do I do it in a way that's unique and stands out? So I'm not just like come to the good foot store. No, I shouldn't say that, no offense to them, but no. Here's Dr. Scholes, like it's comfortable, you know. So you can tell a new and take a risk with that audience that's good and different, but you can't really do that across everyone who buys shoes.

SPEAKER_01: 51:07

The thing is, too, is if you're if you're everything to everyone, you're nothing to nobody. Yeah, right. Right. It's so that I think of like, yeah, there are some things that are yeah, they're just generic, like broad appeal, what casting that white net. But if you're like with us specifically to that point of like, we want to, there is a maybe it's me, but I think uh other people feel the same way. In the category of orthopedic shoes, it has a we want to be the yum to the yuck of that category, right? Yeah. So you look at people in their 50s now, there are there are people you know that are active and you know, living their life. They might have they're they're more and more, they're wearing, you know, Nike Dunks, uh Jordans, you know, they're wearing stuff we're wearing now, right? And so as time moves on, that culture of that space of people getting older, they don't want to feel, they don't want to feel like they want like I want to still look good. Sure, yeah. You know, I'm not gonna throw my body and my life away just because I'm older. It's like, no, I like this. Like, yeah, and that's where like you know, with our audience being older, younger, like their kids and stuff are gonna have an impact on their lives of like, oh mom, this is what's trending, this is what's cool. Yeah, oh, I saw this brand because I thought of you, and it's super cute, but it also it it's trying to uh, you know, the function and the style together. Yeah. Uh and they're doing it in a unique way and they're super cute and blah, blah, blah. Like, like that's gonna be more and more happening, I I hope, for us in the long run. I like what you say, the yum to the yuck. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Because at the end of the day, if you're in a brand and you're not like feeling challenged, or if you're not like if it's just if you're not having fun doing it, then what's the point? Yeah, right. The thing, end of the day, it's like you have an opportunity to change a category. We half of it was luck getting the right people for Kizzik, true classic, like it not every every experience is the same, and the pro but the problems are a lot of the same, whether it's externally, the things we do, what we don't do. Um, so that's always the challenge. But I agree with you in terms of like it's easier to start a business now and create something sticky that's gonna stand out. Yeah, totally.

Mark: 53:17

Um, but yeah, and yeah, I think the secret's personalization.

SPEAKER_03: 53:21

Oh yeah, yeah.

Mark: 53:23

Because I think we just live in a decentralized world. Like that's what I was trying to figure out of like why nothing sticks anymore. Like, if you look at the last eight years, so we're talking about this in the office. Why is it that when Anchorman came out, seemingly everyone was like telling jokes from Anchorman? Oh yeah, or dumb and dumber. Or dumb and dumber. Like no one's like no one does that anymore. Like, there's no comedy movies that stick out. There's nothing like the only cultural moment was maybe like Barbenheimer. And even that lasted for like a month. And so I think Barbie Oppenheimer, just if anyone's why do you why do you think the movie industry sucks now? And I was gonna say, yeah, so the movie industry sucks because again, because of phones, social media, algorithms, whatever, however you want to call it, but I say it's just decentralization. Like pop culture is not centralized anymore. So pop culture does not come from MTV and it doesn't come from the movie, it's coming from all these little pockets on the web.

SPEAKER_05: 54:24

Yeah.

Mark: 54:25

And so you cannot, like the mass appeal is harder, but if you can narrow down on these subsets, you can really take advantage of it. But and there's still TAM, you know, like I'm not saying you can't grow, like Ridge Wallet's a great example of that. Like it's a a men's wallet, or TAM's huge. Yeah, and you can always appeal to men like at different levels, but like you're gonna do that differently at zero to ten million than you are when you're at hundred to two hundred million. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 54:55

Totally. I agree. Yeah, I wonder if the uh new what will start to happen is instead of brands becoming five hundred million dollar, billion dollar brands, as you'll have business owners and founders who will own multiple hundred million dollar brands that are going in lanes of people. Different lanes. Yeah, instead of just one huge one business, you know, becoming a business.

SPEAKER_01: 55:20

Those are gonna become rare and rarer. Yeah. Like those footwear brands that are like, you know, it's like Hoka. I mean, Hoka's been around 15 years, yeah. The last around uh on running about maybe around the same time, but not until a couple years ago they started like hitting. Yeah. And so a lot of these times it's just sometimes it takes time, cultural relevancy, you know, just pop culture in general, be like, oh, I'm seeing more of these shoes. There's meant availability of like, oh, those are cute. Am I a runner? No, but I'm gonna wear it because they look comfortable or whatever it might be. Um, and I think those are gonna become rarer and rarer, yeah, unless you have like a standout core differentiating product. Because at the end of the day, if your product's not good, nothing else matters. The experience, like you can have a great experience buying through the buying cycle, or you know, like, oh, this is a great ad, blah, blah, blah. But if your product sucks, everything else is irrelevant. Yeah, I think. But it's hard to gift wrap a turd. Totally. Well, it's easy to gift wrap. Unless you light it on fire and put it on for it. Yeah, yeah. Just thinking of uh Billy Madison. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 56:25

Well, dude, thank you so much for coming on. This has been great. Yeah. Uh where can people find you, follow you? Do you LinkedIn?

SPEAKER_01: 56:33

LinkedIn, uh just Blake Brown. Um I'm don't have a cohesive handle structure, so it's just what it is. Okay. And Kuru Footwear is KuruFootwear.com. Cool. Yeah. With a K. Yeah, K-U-R-U footwear. Awesome.

Mark: 56:49

A mailman doesn't go for walks when he goes home.

SPEAKER_01: 56:51

So I've never heard of that before.

Mark: 56:55

There you go. Well, when you said you don't have a cohesive structure, it's like a brand guy who doesn't have like a cohesive personal brand. So like, well, when you're working on other people's brands, all the time. I'm too busy focused on other people's brands.

SPEAKER_03: 57:06

Yeah, it doesn't make sense when you brought it in. I had to go home. I was like, mailman, what do you say? Okay, I got it. Yeah. Thank you for explaining. So it makes sense why you worked well. Yeah. Yeah. Worked well. All right. Thank you everybody for listening and go follow Blake. Go check out Kuru Footwear and uh we'll catch you guys next week. Thank you for listening to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. If there's a brand campaign strategy or marketing tactic that you want us to review, please DM me at the TrevorCrump on Instagram or TikTok or at the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. And of course, if you got value from this episode or if you like it whatsoever, please make sure you're subscribing, you're liking, you're following, and for sure go leave us a review to let us know that we're doing a good job. We will see you guys next time.