Quick Cold Open On Conviction

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Don't listen to other people. They're in CPG, but not in frozen food.

Mark 0:04

At the end of the day, like you hold the cards and you have to make what you hold work.

Meet Sunshine Buns Founder Chrissy

SPEAKER_01 0:08

What are you doing? For cinnamon rolls? You're gonna throw that away? And there was a woman that was like, I'm completely offended by you. And I'm like, I'm so not interested. We make a delicious treat that has six ingredients in it. It's literally like your grandmother made it. My mom's like, you should just bake them and freeze them. And we're like, no, it's not gonna work. She's like, I'm telling you, it's gonna work. So we freeze one and then we eat it. We're like, holy shiz, this is so freaking good.

Trevor 0:35

Yo, what's going on, everybody? Welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. With me as always, is Mark Goldhart, my co-founder, my co-host and co-founder. We're together. It works. How are you? Good.

Mark 0:47

Welcome. Thank you.

Trevor 0:50

It's good to be back.

Mark 0:51

Are we back?

Trevor 0:53

Well, we just now record like every other week. So it feels like we take a very long break.

Mark 0:58

Yeah, it is nice to be back.

Trevor 1:00

We got to we're used to record every week and then we we kind of just came a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. So that's why I say we're back. To everyone else, it doesn't matter. Yeah, I mean, it's been two weeks for them too, to hear an episode. But I'm excited for today. Me too. Yeah. You heard a voice over here that you probably don't know who it is. If you're listening, if you're seeing, you're seeing somebody that you may not know, or maybe you do know. Uh, but want to introduce our guest today that we have on the podcast. Uh, her name is Chrissy Hammer. She is the CEO of Sunshine Buns, which is the world's best cinnamon bun. Cinnamon roll, cinnamon bun?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

What do you what is I mean, you can call it either one. Okay. What really knocks me is when people call it the world's best Cinnabon. I'm like, no. That's it. Because Cinnabon's a brand. We're not Cinnabon. But yeah, they've really owned the market, so people confuse the two. But cinnamon roll, cinnamon bun.

Trevor 1:52

My parents are notorious for taking a brand name and calling it a category. Totally. So, for example, my whole life, I grew up believing that tennis shoes were kids. Oh, sure. So I always said kids. Yeah. It's like, we're your kids.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Yeah.

Trevor 2:09

And my wife was the first person to ever call me out on it. She's like, what are kids? And I'm like, they're what you're wearing. Yeah. And she's like, those are like tennis shoes.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Like my Nikes?

unknown 2:18

Yeah.

Trevor 2:19

And so keds.

Mark 2:20

Yeah, I was gonna say, I've never even heard of kids. Is that a brand? It was a brand. They're a cool brand, though. Yeah. Like they're cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

They should bring, they should, I swear they're back. Maybe they are. I mean, everything's like.

Trevor 2:31

Yeah, everything's coming, kind of coming back.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah.

Trevor 2:34

Um, there was another one. We were just with them over the weekend, and they said another thing that I I mean Kleenex is Kleenex.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

That was like it's a tissue.

Trevor 2:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mom was like, hey, I I I'm going to the bathroom to go get a Kleenex.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah.

Trevor 2:47

And my wife was like, why is she saying Kleenex?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

That's funny. Because for me, Kleenex has so crossed the barrier. Like keds, that's a stretch. But Kleenex, like that's Well, band-aid is the number one. And Q-tips. Totally.

Trevor 3:03

Right? Those. I don't think anyone knows what a Q-tip is called.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Like a cotton swap.

Trevor 3:09

What would you call a band-aid? A bandage. Oh yeah, bandage. A plaster cast?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah.

Trevor 3:15

But that's what they call them on Bluey? No, but no.

Mark 3:18

But to be fair, band-aid and Q-tip, that's that's different because they kind of invented the category.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Uh-huh. Yeah.

Mark 3:24

Same thing with post-it notes. Yeah, like a post-it note is like a sticky note, you know?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Like they wouldn't say sticky note, you'd say post-it.

Mark 3:31

You'd say post-it because cinnamon rolls.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Or cinnamon buns. Either one. Yeah, wow goes.

Mark 3:36

But cinnamon buns were not invented by Cinnabon.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

No. No. They weren't.

Mark 3:41

No, they weren't. That's like calling cookies. Nestle. Nestle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nestle's.

Trevor 3:47

Um okay. Here's my hot take on cinnamon. Yeah. And then we'll hear from you. Um my hot take about cinnamon rolls. One, I used to never like them. Now I very much do after my taste buds have matured. Evolved and matured.

Mark 4:02

I think Did you just not have taste buds?

Trevor 4:05

Um I didn't I also didn't like root beer as a kid.

Mark 4:11

That's understandable. But now I love root beer. Because root beer, I can understand why some people might not and might like it.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah. You're the kid that was like, I'll have a beautiful meal. You're like, Mom, I'm not sure.

Mark 4:23

Have you ever met a kid who doesn't like cinnamon buns?

Trevor 4:25

Well, part of the reason why is like I'm not a couple of things. I'm not a big sweets guy. So like if I were to have cake, you will see that I will scrape off as much of the icing as I can.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Yeah.

Trevor 4:36

And so the cinnamon roll, because it was like melted on, I couldn't really do that.

Mark 4:40

But it's not as sugary, it's a cake.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

No.

Mark 4:43

Because the dough is dough. It's not a cake batter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

You want to know my hot take? Yeah. You haven't had a good cinnamon roll.

Trevor 4:50

You're probably some homemade ones that I felt like were, you know, like Easter morning kind of.

Mark 4:57

Is your hot take they're overrated?

Trevor 4:58

No. My hot take is that Trader Joe's has the best cinnamon roll. Oh, Trader Joe's has a good bun. Okay. Yeah. Like the ones where you pop the can. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's decent. My other hot take is like, I think Trader Joe's is the most overrated place on the planet. Really? Yes. It is a fake, healthy.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Oh, it's totally fake. Yeah. But it's not good either.

Trevor 5:18

Every time we go, because we only go for treats. Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Like that's the can they have great can.

Trevor 5:24

Except for I do always buy the cinnamon.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Interesting.

Trevor 5:28

And my wife thinks I'm crazy for it.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

We'll wait till you try ours. I'm excited. And you know what's great about ours is not.

Mark 5:32

You haven't had a good cinnamon roll, have you?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah. No, I have had cinnamon rolls.

Mark 5:35

I've had a lot of Trader Joe's is a great cinnamon roll, you have not had a good cinnamon roll.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

So it's decent. I'll give you decent. But that's from Yeah, I'll give you decent.

Trevor 5:49

No, the maestro herself says they're decent.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Rhodes is pretty good.

Mark 5:52

If you had the roads, it means on a scale of one to ten or zero to ten, it could be anywhere from a three to a six.

Trevor 5:59

It's like a four, five. Well, I have like a I have like a sweets uh check like not a checklist, but I have like a if this suite is presented in front of me, the answer's always yes. Right. And then I have like everything else is for the most part, I try not to. Totally. You know? Yeah. And a cinnamon roll is usually for me on the outskirts of it. Unless it's like, hey, you gotta try this.

Mark 6:25

Hey, this is but again, if you think of Trader Joe's is great, yeah. Then you're right. You haven't had a good cinnamon roll.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

But that but that's my point, is that Americans have lost their love and trust in a good cinnamon roll. That's why we're doing so well. Because people don't we have to educate. Our expectations are low. Your expectations are very low.

Mark 6:49

Yeah, like shout out to my mom, I guess. But I would rate a Trader Joe as a two.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yeah. Well, I give it a four.

Mark 6:55

I would rate a Cinnabon at the airport as like a three or four.

Trevor 6:59

Oh, I would give it a zero. I don't believe you've had a Trader Joe's one. I think you're speaking. I have.

Mark 7:05

No, you my wife has gotten me one.

Trevor 7:07

Oh, your wife would not do that.

Mark 7:09

She goes to Trader Joe's every week. Your wife does not go to Trader Joe's. She does.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

I'm so disappointed. Every week. You guys, Trader Joe's is a slaps. I love Trader Joe's.

Mark 7:19

You're Western Health Nut. I'm shocked. You're a Trader Joe's girl? No, no, no. She's a health nut now, but she was not five years ago. It's after she became Ciliac. Five years ago, I guess you my son is five. She's a Trader Joe's involver by the five. Was diagnosed with celiac five years ago. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Well, she's not having cinnamon rolls.

Mark 7:38

Not anymore.

Trevor 7:39

Chrissy. How are you? I'm doing well. Tell us about yourself. I found Chrissy, by the way. Yes. So the reason why Chrissy is here, not just because she's a a founder, but um I came across your content on LinkedIn, and I've just loved that you are building in public. You know, we I I made a joke that says like, that's like the new wave that's been new for like five or six years, yet no one really does it. And it and surprise, surprise, when people do it, it works.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Right.

From Interior Design Burnout To Food

Trevor 8:07

Um, and so that's how we came across each other. We have are we we've just met each other, so we don't really know each other that much. So tell the world um about sunshine buns, and let's hear a little bit of background and then let's jump into some some fun stuff.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah, well, my personal background is I own an interior design firm for about 10 years. And during that 10 years, I always wanted to start Sunshine Buns. The recipe comes uh from my mom from the 1970s. She's affectionately known as Mima. She actually came to Expo West, and people were sweet freaking out. She's 80. She's so cute. Like they just loved meeting her. But it's her recipe from the 1970s. And during all that time, I wanted to start a business, but like we had a show on HGTV. It was like we were in. Yes. We were interior designers. And we didn't really, my husband and I didn't have the capacity to start the business really because we were so busy. Um, you know, like I would have 20 clients a year, and it was very intense. And always in the background, I wanted to do it. And interior design was getting more popular, and I was getting great clients and great homes and great projects. But it was starting, I was starting to really hate it. Like the people, I don't know if you've ever remodeled a home or built a home, but I always say you become the worst version of yourself when you are put in that. I believe it. And everyone in your sphere suffers as a result of your remodel or your new build.

Mark 9:37

Like everyone turns into a bride's own.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Right. Like you hate yourself. You're like, I hate that I care about this doorknob at three o'clock in the morning.

Trevor 9:45

Well, I've heard I've heard that if you can remodel a house as a couple and you're gonna be a divorce, then you can survive anything.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

So times that by 20. And I'm getting those that emotional, you know, just it consumes you. Yeah. And and it's emotionally heavy and they're spending a lot of money. And I just was like, I can't, you know, like I'd go to a meeting and I'd present and work so hard, and one of my clients would be like, Hey, Jose, like, what do you think about this tile? He's like laying the pool cement.

SPEAKER_03 10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Jose has no concept of what your tile should look like. Don't ask Jose, but you get it just consumes you. And so it became too much. And in 2022, I was like, I really want to do this. And can I ask you a question about that? Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Mark 10:31

I I'm asking this question because I'm interested, but also I think it'll relate to what we're talking about later. Do uh does the stress come so much from someone not knowing what they want, or is it because they start thinking too much about how others perceive what they want?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

I mean, I think it's twofold. It does come from like what are people gonna think about this? And also when you hire a designer, that person, the designer, has the full vision and you maybe not be capable of seeing that. And so when things start, you know, you see a piece at a time and you have to trust that it's gonna all come together. And because you've never done it before, well, because you're you're watching how the sausage is.

Mark 11:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

You're just like, I have no idea. Is this gonna look good? Like, this is funky, and so it's a long time from con the beginning to the end. Like I did a parade home this last year, and it's 24 months. It's not like I'm working with these people for a long time.

Trevor 11:29

Yeah, we did this for like three months, remodeling our bedroom, bathroom, closet. And for I don't know, eighty six of those 90 days, I was like, I don't see it.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Right. No, you don't see it constantly to my wife.

Trevor 11:44

I was like, this is gonna be so bad.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Yeah.

Trevor 11:47

And then all of a sudden I'm like, oh, this looks so awesome. But you don't see that until the last day. I didn't like voice my opinion. Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

But you don't see that till literally the last day. So you question, even though you vetted this person and you've seen them. And then the other part is they start like, oh, I asked my friend Joe. Joe has Joe lives in a house. So Joe knows, like, he's got carpet.

Trevor 12:15

Or I saw this TV show and they have this style. I want to change.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Oh, I was on Pinterest at 4 a.m. Well, I bet Pinterest's sorry, you don't have Studio McGee's budget. That was a$7 million build. Do you have$7 million in your$150,000 budget? Yeah. You know, so it's just it's a combination of things. It's also really hard to scale.

Trevor 12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

And I wanted to grow something that I could scale.

Selling Out Fast From Home

Trevor 12:38

So 2022. 2022.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I'm with my husband and we're with our best friends. And I'm like, guys, I really want to sell Mimos buns. You know, that everyone's had them at this point. Like, she's famous for what she can make in the kitchen. Yeah. Everyone knows. And they're like, and my friend, my best friend, was like, I said it, and we kind of looked each other way outside the Hill Theater, about to watch a show. And we look at each other and we're like, wait, are are we gonna do this? Like, I just said it. And then she was like, Yes, let's do it. And right then and there in the parking lot, we got the Instagram page. We said we're gonna start selling them this weekend. Our husbands were rolling their eyes. Like, I have 20 clients, and she does Zumba internationally. Like, we're in no capacity to start a new business. Yeah, but we just did. And um uh we turn it on that weekend, we sell out. I had a soccer tournament and she had a volleyball tournament that brought us away from our kids, and our husbands were still at home. And I think we each made like six dozen rolls, and we sold like 25 dozen in like 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Jeez.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

So I'm calling my husband. He has no idea how to make cinnamon rolls. Neither does Cass. Yeah. Like it's been wild. And we're calling each other's husbands, like, oh, you've got to make more uns. And so they did, they put them together. Uh, our co-founder son delivered them that night.

Mark 14:03

And so from Mima show up to coach him up.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Mima showed up to coach him up. She shows up everywhere. She's at the Copac every other week. She's down in Vegas and Sacramento. She's awesome. But she went over to my husband's, got him started, and and then from then on, we baked and delivered out of our house every single day. With I have five kids, she has three. Yeah. She has a she had a newborn at the time. Yeah. And um, the other businesses. And then we were like, this is impossible. Like, I don't, you guys don't know this, but baking a cinnamon roll is super hard. Like it's a double rise, it's bread, it's yeast.

Mark 14:40

But I do know this.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

It takes six hours to bake a cinnamon roll.

Mark 14:43

True dress, 30 minutes. Well, when my mom wakes up to do cinnamon rolls, she's up at like four in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

No, it's like very smoky meat.

Mark 14:51

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Um, especially if you don't have commercial tools. Uh so we were.

Trevor 15:00

Yeah, like, oh, yeah. You gotta start at four if you want them ready by 10.

Opening The First Store

SPEAKER_01 15:03

No, seriously, seriously. So we would we did that every day for about six months, and we're like, we just have to open up a store. So we find a lease on State Street, the old Italian place. It had been there for 30 years in Orim, and it had active leaks and mold, and it was absolutely trashed. And we got a smoking deal on it. And we took about 13 months to remodel it, and we paused baking during that time because we're like, we just don't have the capacity to do this out of our house anymore. And you know, we're doing daily deliveries to like Saratoga Springs, and it's wild. So we were like, let's just remodel, open up the store. We opened up in August of 2024. It's been a huge success. It was a huge success. Um, and always in the back of my mind, something unfortunate about me is that my brain like does not stop. It's like, okay, we've done this now. What can we do here? How can we continue to add to the madness? And I had always thought like this probably should be in grocery stores because there is such a hole in the market. Like we're talking Pillsbury, which is doe, Annie's, which is dough, Rhodes, which is dough, Trader Joe's, it's dough. Like, other than going to the bakery aisle, you know, like where you get your deli meat at Smith's, there's like trash buns there, too. Like, there's just not any cinnamon rolls that are like premium quality and good. And so early 2012. Yeah, they're just not, they're not good. Also, they're junk, like they're filled with so many chemicals. Yeah. Like instantly you take a bite and you're like, this does not taste like Mima made it. Yeah, it tastes like radioactive. And that's like Cinnabon tastes so commercialized to me at this point. Like, and there was just such a hole in the market. Uh, 2025, we were approached by several people. Holiday oil was like, Hey, will you make these for every single holiday? Oh, so every single day. And we're like, Yeah, sure, we have no capacity to do it. But we're like, Yeah, let's figure it out. So we did, and we we sold to them every single day. And meanwhile, people are telling us, like, oh, this should be in grocery stores, like, you should be doing this for grocery, and kind of always was in the back of our mind, but trying to understand the CPG space from someone that has literally no idea about how to scale food is like an impossible thing. It's like becoming a surgeon. Yeah, like it's so weird because we use it every day. We go to the grocery store, but normal people do not know how to get your food into grocery stores. For sure. So I always say that that was a great thing that I didn't know because I just went for it. But in 2025, I'm like, okay, it's January. We open up our store in August. Somehow I get the phone number for the Costco buyer in the Pacific Northwest. And I call her. I'm like, hey, um, I got cinnamon rolls. Like, how do I get them at Costco? And she's like, Well, who are you? So she looks at my brand. She's like, Oh, this is cute. Um, like, do you know anything about CPG? And I'm like, Oh, no, like, what is CPG?

SPEAKER_03 18:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

I've literally got the Costco buyer on, and I'm like, I don't know what CPG is. Yeah. So she's like, you know, it's consumer packaged goods. And she's like, You're so cute. You know, you've got a lot to learn. This is so intense. Um, but you're so cute. Here's the gift card number. Get your gift cards in Costco. So I'm like, okay, so go through all that. We get our gift cards in Costco. Um, you know, a week later, I'm like, Can I ask a question?

Trevor 18:51

What are what are people able to use the gift cards if it's in the Pacific Northwest?

SPEAKER_01 18:54

We have the store, well, it's just the gift cards at Orim, like just our store. You can come into the store.

Trevor 18:58

So the buyers in Pacific Northwest will be. They're like, you guys are so cute.

Learning CPG By Cold Calling

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Like, you're so ballsy to call me and be like, Are we part of the Pacific Northwest? Yeah, we are. Okay. We're for Costco. Yeah, for Costco. So uh she gets me in front of him, and this is a big deal. Yeah. But we got our gift cards in the Orim store. Like, this is also not something that's done. You know, we had just opened up our store. So I'm continuing down like, I don't know anything, but I'm willing to learn, and I'm just not nervous to like build or fall publicly. Like, I'm just not embarrassed. So I'm like, someone's like, you gotta start at Harman's. And you guys know this, but maybe your listeners don't. But Harman's dictates a lot of the country's grocery movement. Like it is, they're like the mafia of grocery. Yeah. You if you can get into Harman's, there's pretty much nowhere you can succeed anywhere.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Yeah.

The Pivot To Pre-Baked Frozen

SPEAKER_01 19:55

And I don't know. I'm like, oh, I just there's a Harman's by my house. So I go to Harman's HQ and I got a four pack, and I'm like, I got buns. Like, how do I get them? And she's like, Well, what is this? Like, I'm like, oh, well, we'll just bake them every day and like drop them off at Harman's. And you guys know that that is not the way it's done. Yeah. And she laughs me out of this, you know, she's like, you don't know what you're doing. Like, you have so much to learn. Go learn and then come back. So, you know, we take all of 2025 to like really learn what we're doing. We don't know anything. We're calling everyone, just showing up at doors and being like, I've got cinnamon rolls. And we find out that um the fresh model is not gonna work. Like you can't deliver fresh to a store every day. It's a works of the whole oil. It works. Yeah, Krispy Kreme can because they do self-distribution and they have so many locations that they can just drop off. Like we have one location. Like, how is that gonna work? So, you know, have conversations with several people and they're like, you should turn this into dough, like Rhodes is doing. And I don't know if you guys are familiar, but Rhodes kind of owns a cinnamon roll space in Utah in the frozen section. It's pucks of dough that you place and you bake at your house, like Trader Joe's and Pillsbury. And all the while my mom's like, you should just bake them and freeze them. And we're like, that doesn't work. Of course, she's been doing this for 45 years. So who are we to question her? I don't know, but we did. Don't question Mima. And we're like, no, it's not gonna work. She's like, I'm telling you, it's gonna work. So we're like, okay, fine. So we freeze one and then we eat it, and we're like, holy shiz, this is so freaking good. Like it tastes as good as if it just came out of the oven because bread that's not fried can freeze really well. And we flash freeze. So flash freezing is even better. It like keeps the crystals down low, so it freezes really well, tastes really fresh. So we do that, and then we go to the Associated Foods show last April, and I don't know if you know that, but they have a A food show where their independent grocers can come and like try food. And I don't know if you know the space station guys. Do you guys know? Anyway, they were our brokers. They found us. They're like, oh, this is a cool freaking brand. Like we'll help you.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Sweet.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

We don't know anything. Yeah. And they're just Corey and Kimball just guiding us.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Yeah.

Landing Associated Foods And Scaling

SPEAKER_01 22:18

And uh they're like, let's pitch the dough. Bring it to the show. Let's pitch the dough. They got us in the show. We go, we pitch the dough. Well, we brought fresh buns there that we had frozen and heated up. And all the buyers are coming through and they're like, What is this? And we're like, well, these were frozen. And they're like, they're frozen. You know, it was like, they're baked and they're frozen. And then we started thinking, like, oh, maybe this has like some legs. Not the dough, but the actual baked product. So we're like, oh yeah, they're frozen. Oh yeah, we can do that. Oh, no problem. So all these people, I think there was like, I don't know if you know, but Associative Foods is made up of a co-op of grocery stores. So all the independent grocers that you see, Dan's, Lynn's, Mike's, Clark's, you know, like little independent grocers within Utah and the surrounding states belong to Associative Foods. 500 total, including Harman's and Macy's. And if you can get in with the buyer, then you can be distributed to all of the little tiny independent grocers. And so they're just freaking out. They're like, we love it, we love it, we love it. So everyone's like, done, you're in, it's awesome. And they're like, but now you need to go, you need to go to a plant because you can't bake these in Oram. Like we need 50,000 cinnamon rolls. How many can you do in a day? Oh, a thousand. Like, there's just no way we would have capacity. So then we're calling all the big manufacturers, and no one bakes a bun. They do dough because that's what our consumer purchases. Yep. Pillsbury, Annie's roads. It's all dough. Like, well, that's what makes us different and special and unique, is that it's already baked. So we spent six months trying to find someone that could do it. Uh, finally found one, got into Associated Foods. We launched in November of last year into the 500 stores, and um it just went gangbusters. Like everybody wanted it. It was fantastic because, like I said, it's pre-baked and frozen, and the consumer doesn't have to bake it. So we kind of found this hole. Then we went to Fancy Food Show in January, and national buyers were like, gotta have, you know, Costco, Walmart, Albertsons, Target. Everybody's like, this is awesome. So we go to Fancy in January. We get national brokers. Um, and now where I'm sitting, you know, March, we just wrapped up expo. We're in about a thousand grocery stores. We just landed Costco, LA. Um, we're looking at a national rollout at one of the big buoys by the end of the year, and about 6,000 doors. So it went really fast. Um, but it took a long prep, all of 2025 to get to a place where we could do that. Meanwhile, we still have the store, yeah, which has been an awesome test. Like, hey, we have a new flavor. Yep. We have 15 flavors. Totally. Well, and you know, we were in Real Salt Lake, Mountain America, Salt Palace, we do BYU events, you know, all these things, weddings. So it's been a journey, but national CPG scale is the goal.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Yeah.

Influencers And Regional Word Of Mouth

SPEAKER_01 25:45

You know, opening up a few um corporate stores, like in airports and stuff, but mostly just scale and sell this thing. That's kind of the ultimate goal. So very cool.

Mark 25:57

How how much has it helped that your because your co-founder has a little bit of a following, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Yeah.

Mark 26:02

So you your co-founder is I'd categorize her as an influencer.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah, she's an influencer for sure. Right.

Mark 26:10

I can't remember how much. She's got like 500,000 or 500,000, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

And then followers.

Mark 26:15

Yeah, and then sold the initial ones when you first.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Oh, when we first launched it, well, our relationship with local influencers. I don't remember her name, but her name's Cass Martin.

Mark 26:23

Cass? Cass. She has she goes viral a lot with her sisters.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Yes, they have the hair and they do the dancing with the moms. Uh like Emily Ingemann.

Mark 26:34

You've seen her.

Trevor 26:35

Yeah, I think I I think I know who you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yes, usually here. If I showed you her, you'd be like, those are.

Mark 26:40

Because of our clients and because our algorithms often are yeah, you see it.

Trevor 26:44

Yeah, we see them. Well, I also think that she, with one of our clients, has worked with one of them.

Mark 26:49

Yeah, she has.

Trevor 26:50

Yeah. Okay. Oh, all of them.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yeah. She's an influencer.

unknown 26:54

Okay.

Trevor 26:54

For sure. I think I know who you're talking about. So um, you do.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

That, and you know, our influencer base is like we know all the influencers. You know, like we run an episode of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Like, yeah, Emily Cass's sister, her sister-in-law is Demi from Secret Lives. So it's like we know all the people, they post all the things, and that's helped from a Utah perspective. But like when you're outside of Utah, like they don't know. I mean, they do know a little bit, but when you're trying to cater to John in Hawaii, he doesn't know who Demi is from Secret Lives. Secret Lives.

Mark 27:33

You know what I mean? We kind of call it the Mormon corridor.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Totally.

Mark 27:36

It's really easy to if you have a good product. Totally. And this isn't just true for you know the Mormon corridor, it's also true regionally wherever you might start and if you have good traction there. Totally. But what happens here is you have really good word of mouth. So if you have a good product, you can actually get word of mouth really quickly.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Really quickly, yeah.

Mark 27:55

And because of all the influencers that are here. So if you have friends who are influencers, you can really catch fire very quickly in this kind of regional pocket. But then outside of it, it's harder.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark 28:06

So you'll run into a wall. Yes. And you're like, wait, what's going on? Like I thought it was easy to see. I thought it was easy.

Trevor 28:12

Yeah.

Mark 28:13

And it's like, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

You're still going to do fine.

Mark 28:16

It's just a different growth pattern. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah. Luckily, because there is such a hole in the market, we haven't run into that yet. I know we will. Like, I know we're going to have our plateaus and well, we're talking more e-commerce. Yes. And brick and mortar. Like, if we open up a store in Louisiana, that would be really hard.

Mark 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

For us to be like, come to our store. Yeah.

Mark 28:39

CPG's different.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

CPG is totally different. And if you can get in, it's in, it's incredible. Now getting in is so hard. Yeah. Like it's near impossible. I always tell people, like, you know, we had initial conversations with a couple of brokers. We're not with Space Station anymore because now we have national. Yeah. Um, they actually sell liquid death. Yeah. So we have great, we have great brokers, but um they're, you know, they have like such a deep understanding of once you get in and how to scale. But early when we were uh talking to a couple brokers, they were like, well, what's to stop someone from starting a competitor? I'm like, they probably will. It'll take 36 months until we see competitor. It's so hard. Yeah. Like it is so hard. So our goal is to, you know, hopefully kill it on our branding, which we feel like we're we're doing well, and you know, continue to tell the story publicly. Yes. You know, try to get people excited about Mima and the brand and like the origins and the story and who we are and what makes us different. Um, so that it does explode in the CPG space.

Admitting What You Say No To

Trevor 29:50

What was it that um so like when you when you first started in those early stages of talking to people who gave you a chance from a retail perspective? Yeah, what was it when they when you say, Oh, I'm Chrissy, Sunshine Buns.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

Totally.

Trevor 30:04

What is the first thing that they're looking at or asking you to understand if they want to take the next step to see if you're a right fit?

SPEAKER_01 30:12

I mean, I think the product is always first.

Trevor 30:15

Okay. And in a world, because you yeah, because like if if I'm calling you and I'm like, Yeah, hey, uh Costco, right, I sell buns. Right. Right? The first thing they're not gonna be is like, send them to me. No. Right? No. They want to look into you first. Totally. What are they looking at when they're looking into you?

SPEAKER_01 30:33

I think something unique about me is that I am not scared, like I said, to fall publicly. I am not embarrassed. I am a great storyteller. Uh-huh. So I can instantly say, like, here's my story, and this is why we're special and different and awesome. Yeah. And I think it resonates. You know, I'm I try not to be too serious in things that I do, but I have a deep understanding of like business and all how what it takes to grow a business and a brand.

Mark 31:04

And maybe intuitively you understand brand because of your interior design experience. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

I do have a deep, deep level of respect and love for design. Things connect. And that's not just for homes. Like that's I care deeply about details and some things that maybe other founders might overlook and say, this is not important. And I'm like, it's damn important. Yeah. Like you better in a C of CPG, like you have to stand out.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Um, so I think I'm not afraid to share, and I am playful and I am fun, and I don't take, you know, like I don't try to be a man in a man's world. You know, I very much lean into my femininity and like I'm a woman and I am different and I have fun and I'm a mom and all these things that I try not to be too serious, you know, and I don't know if that resonates. Um, but to be honest, in the beginning, it is so many slam doors. It's like I you have a little store. And even before we open the store, my friends and family are like, what are you doing? Yeah. Like you have a successful interior design business. So you're gonna like for cinnamon rolls, you're gonna throw that away. Yeah, you know. So I think it's a willingness to like stumble and fall and be totally fine being covered in dirt and bruised on your way up the hill, you know, like just one thing that's interesting about your story is it reminds me that often at the beginning you're willing to say yes to anything.

Mark 32:40

Totally. But then as you grow, you have to learn to say no.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

It's so hard to say no.

Mark 32:46

So I'd love to hear what have you learned that you have to say no to.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

I say no to a lot of DMs on LinkedIn. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm sure I'm like, oh my gosh. Like we were expo, and this lady comes out. She's just like, I've DM'd you on LinkedIn like 25 times. Yeah. I can't believe you've not spoken to me. I'm like, I have to say no. Like, I can't say yes to everybody. Yeah. And that is something that has been really hard because in the beginning I was like, every DM, every message, every conversation I was engaged in, and now I've had to limit my conversations, which has been really hard. What kind of DMs are you getting? Like, what are these requests? Like, can you hop on the phone and talk to me about eggs? Sure. I've got great packaging. I have a foundation that I would love for you to come and like, you know, and we say yes to a lot, but there are some that we have to be like I have to say no, or like, and I don't want to say no, but in the beginning, it's all the yeses. And with growing a business, it's all the yeses. Like, I would have said I could take on Costco way before I could take on Costco, which would have been really bad.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Now we can take on Costco. Costco knows better, so they're not gonna offer it to you until you're ready.

Trevor 34:00

Costco's doing a good job at that.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

But there are retailers that will offer to you before you're ready, and that can be super scary. So you do have to learn when to say no, how to scale appropriately. You know, like we'll have a coffee shop in California. Be like, hey, will you send us a case of buns? Before we would have said yes. Now we're like, no, yeah, you can't get a case of buns. Yeah. Like you can order a pallet. Do you have can you order 96 cases of buns? Like that's not gonna fit in your tiny, you know. So you have to get really good at at doing that. And I'm really not good at that yet.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

And turning brokers down, like people that want to sell for you. In the beginning, you're like, oh my gosh, you'll sell.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Yeah.

Brand Voice That Refuses To Behave

SPEAKER_01 34:42

And then you have to get to a point where you're like, I have to be super strategic. Like it costs a lot of money to have a good salesperson, and you have to choose wisely. So that's saying no to a lot of great people. And sometimes that goes well. Sometimes I get really mad.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

You know, so you have to get good at that.

Trevor 35:02

I like I like how you've kind of done things. What I'm hearing from you is it's like, okay, cool. We started out, one, you start out with like a foundation, which is the story. And that at the end of the day is gonna be your moat. Totally. Right? It's not even the taste or the recipe because you're gonna get somebody who is going to create something that is going to be comparable. Let's say your son, Mima's sunshine buns. Also, taste is subjective. Exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Yeah, some people aren't gonna like it.

Trevor 35:30

Yeah, if it's if it's a 8.6 on the scale, if you're trying 8.2 versus 9.5, in you know, like it's the same, it's it's very similar, right? And so as long as somebody can get it to a point, you're gonna have this competition. Totally, right? And you're gonna have people who, like you said, who are gonna sell pre-made buns that you all you have to do is heat up. Um, so one I love, you start with the moat, which is it's Mima, it's the story, it's this background, okay. The second thing is you didn't start this way necessarily on purpose, but you had uh someone who had distribution, which was your friend, who starts to help you sell this. And then the next step you make is let's dog food it and build our own retail front. So now we can just like test new flavors, try new recipes, do whatever. And so you're not just going to Albertson's or Costco or Harman's or even holiday oil out of your kitchen. You're going to them now where you have like something to show for it. And that's what I'm hearing is when you're making these phone calls, they have they can look at, oh, what are your you could probably have what are your sales retail?

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Yeah.

Trevor 36:47

How many buns are you selling a day? Oh, I'm selling, I don't know if this is a lot or or or tiny, a thousand buns a day. Yeah. You know, okay, that's incredible. Right. Oh, here's our distribution. Oh, here's my co-founder. Oh, here, and oh, and then now I'm getting to know your story. That makes it a lot easier. You have these kind of four checkpoints when you're talking to Harmons that they're like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah.

Trevor 37:07

Oh, and your brand looks really good. Yeah. Let's now try some of your buns to see if there's if the product is good. Totally. You know, that's the next step. Am I am I getting this?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

No, you're totally getting it right. I think when we started, we were hoping to franchise like Crumble.

Trevor 37:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

That's an important part of the story. I neglected to tell you guys. And the other founders, my husband and our best friends, were like, no one wanted to go wholesale but me.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

But it's such a challenging, it's like asking someone in a wheelchair to run a marathon. Yeah. Like it is so complicated. Yeah. And if someone isn't willing to do the research and like the deep understanding that that takes, it won't be successful. And so I really had to sell the three on like, let's abandon the crumble model.

SPEAKER_03 37:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

And let's go in to a market that no one is doing this. And let's try to conquer this beast. And it took some convincing. Yeah. So we abandoned the initial idea. Like, let's franchise. That was the idea. And it was a quick pivot. And, you know, I think we've made the right choice. We feel really good about it. You can scale so much faster once you've broken the barrier. Now getting landed through that barrier is so hard. But once you have, you know, like uh Poppy sold for two billion to in six years, like franchise models can't get to those numbers. They can't you can't scale brick and mortar that quickly. Yeah. You know, it takes a long time and a lot of work.

Trevor 38:41

Yeah. Well, you don't own you don't own a customer.

Mark 38:43

The franchise has the real estate side. Totally. So it's just it's just a different totally.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

It's totally different.

Mark 38:47

It's a different business model.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Totally. Yeah. And that was full blown like years. That's what we were well and the franchise.

Trevor 38:54

You don't own the customer the way like I know Poppy, you know, the majority of their sales are coming from like a wholesale side of things where they also don't own the customer, but they have a very big DDC presence where they do.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

But you control your product.

Trevor 39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

When you're talking about partnering up with someone like on a franchise, there's so much you cannot control. And that is scary. When you own a wholesale or direct-to-consumer, you own that product.

Trevor 39:19

That's probably that's probably the competitor that's going to come in, actually, is probably going to be crumble, that Sawyer guy. Oh, for sure. He loves taking somebody's uh business model that's one.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah, he does.

Trevor 39:28

Converting it.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Yeah.

Trevor 39:29

I bet. He's awesome. I could totally see. I actually like him. Oh, he's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Yeah, he's great.

Trevor 39:33

He does that a lot. Yeah, he does that a lot. He's doing it with yeah. He's doing it with like swig drinks right now. He's doing it with copying what Beehive Meals did. Oh, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

With yeah, Crest Club. Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor 39:44

You know, it's smart.

Founder Mindset Mentors And Ignoring Noise

SPEAKER_01 39:46

I know, but he doesn't quite understand CPG. So we've got a little bit of a leg up. He has a great understanding marketing, you know. Yeah.

Mark 39:54

And franchise model.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

And franchise model. Totally. Well, and Crumble Cookie isn't a f it's a marketing company that sells cookies.

Trevor 39:59

Yeah. You know, so yeah, but that kind of just changed. I feel like they became cookies. Totally. They were a cookie franchise and then they went downhill. And then maybe like 18 months ago, they turned into a marketing company. Yeah. Where then when they figured out the social media side of things, like they've done a really good job at that.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

A really good job. Yeah. They agree. They have great marketing.

Trevor 40:16

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Mark 41:05

Man, I'm just kind of wondering, are we seeing a rise in these companies, especially out of Utah, like the crumbles, because nationwide drinking is down?

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Oh, nationwide drinking is way down.

Mark 41:19

So like are people replacing it with sugary treats like Utah did?

SPEAKER_01 41:23

I mean, I don't know because if you go to Expo, like I just came off from Expo, there is so much protein.

Trevor 41:32

Yeah, protein's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

And it's actually wild. Yeah. Like you, it's like I'm going by a booth and some guy's like, hey, do you want these meatballs? They're made 100% from seaweed and rocks. Like, not really, but I'm like, how did you get, you know, and then they stuff it with all these chemicals. Our thing is like we make a delicious treat that has six ingredients in it. It's literally like your grandmother made it. It's digestible, it's delicious. It's indulgent, yes, but it's not loaded in like synthetic chemicals. We've gone so far, the pendulum, on that, that I do think there is going to be a rise in nostalgic, like indulgent treats again. Because we are so tired of these, like this is so not, it's so far from what it its original intent was. Yeah. And I mean, it's just getting so wild. And and we have seen that from the buyers. What was that?

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Jenny's ice cream.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Oh, Jenny's ice cream is so bomb. We're gonna do a collaboration with them. I'm super pumped. Nice. I know. That's really cool. So, anyway, you like all of the buyers are coming by the booth and they're like, my favorite part is that this actually has gluten and then it's not like a better for you product. Yeah, you know, so I do think you're going to see this juxtaposition between protein packed, which is important. I love protein. Yeah. But I'm generally getting them from eggs, premier protein, yeah, and meat.

unknown 43:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

You know, like I'm not, I know there's a market for people that are.

SPEAKER_03 43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

But generally speaking, I think there's going to be people that want that, and then there's going to be people that like want something delicious that's not synthetic.

Trevor 43:15

This is what this is a really good point you're making. So we talk about this all the time. Like right now, there are I mean, you just saw it at Expo, the competition in uh not just cinnamon rolls, right? But just in treats, totally consumer products. Like it's it's there's so much, like you said, there's people who are creating meatball proteins. There are creating people who are creating uh ice cream protein, there are people who are creating marshmallows with protein. Yeah, I mean, the competition is so, so big right now across the board that I think one of the things that I'm hearing, like that's screaming from everything you're saying is you just have a different way you're going about everything. Everything. Right. Okay. Right now, if you want to compete in cinnamon rolls, you get dough. We're not doing that. No. Boom. Immediately, like that is different. Okay. Like, even your pitch of you going in and being like, I don't know what CPG is. I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know about this is what we make. It's a really good product. Like all of a sudden your buyers are like, oh, I'm going from usually somebody who's buttoned up and polish and saying. It's almost like a shark tank pitch. You know, like I don't know what I'm doing, but I can work all I know. Is I sell this much. Totally. This is my story. And this is a person. And this is my personality. Totally. You want to go. Totally. You know? And I think that that's super critical. You know, same thing. The better for you movement is so big. And you're not necessarily adding protein to this.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

No, there's eight grams of protein naturally.

Trevor 44:45

But you're taking in it, like, yes. We're not better for you, no. But we're also not synthetic. Totally. You know? So we're kind of in this like, it's either been like the crap or the like, how do I make this as good as possible? And we're somewhere maybe leaning a little bit more over here than over here. Yeah. And that, even that is different.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

And so And unapologetically. Like we're not ashamed of anything. Like we do have eight grams of protein per bun, which is a high protein. And so many people have been like, you should slap that on the front. And I'm like, no, I do not want people to approach our buns and be like, this is a protein packed. Yeah. That's a wonderful side effect. Yeah. That when you eat it, you you happen to get eight. That's not the point. That's not what we're selling. It is not a better for you. And on the vein of like, we are who we are, like we designed these shirts for Expo. We brought seven beautiful women. We called ourselves bun babes. The shirts were bikinis made of cinnamon rolls. And there was a woman that was like, I'm completely offended by you. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm so not interested in like listening to this one woman where there's thousands of people. We were giving the shirts away. They were, it was like a stampede.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

So I'm not going to be this like picture perfect female entrepreneur either. Like who you want, who this person expects me to be. Like I'm going to lean into the things that feel authentically me and to the brand and not apologize for any of it.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Until someone like Pillsbury buys us and then we've lost all of our charm and then I'm out. But you know, until that point, like we are going to be loud, slightly irreverent, cheeky, like no one has approached the cinnamon roll industry from like a fresh perspective. It's boring, it's planned. It's so been there, done that, that it's like, let's be loud in our packaging and our messaging, our colors, let's lean into like this awesome part of marketing that Rhodes, Pillsbury, and Annies are not hitting. No, you know?

SPEAKER_03 46:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Let's appeal to like younger people. Yeah. And not just elder millennials plus. You know?

Trevor 47:05

That's the story right there, right? Like when you can draw like a line in the sand and not care who you offend. Totally. You're also going to it's like for every one person you offend, you get like five fans from it. So that one person is the loudest.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Yeah.

Trevor 47:17

Right. Yeah. So it makes you feel like you're doing the wrong thing. Yeah. But then you have five people who are like, give me that shirt. Totally. Like I need the bunkini. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Well, and she approached the and she saw Matt and Brian working the booth. And she's like, Did one of you men design those shirts? And when she found out that it was from me, she was so pissed that it wasn't from a man.

SPEAKER_03 47:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Like, oh, I assumed that that man would objectify these women. It's like, no, we're just like having fun. Yeah. It it doesn't have to be so serious all the time. And it can be fun and playful. And people appreciate that. And they want more of like, oh, this feels so authentic to these people. They're not trying to be Pillsbury. Like we're so obviously not Pillsbury. Yeah. You know? And we don't want to be. Yeah.

Mark 48:08

For sure. So Yeah, people get too wrapped up in their LinkedIn personas. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

I'm just like, I fell on my face today. I share it on LinkedIn and it goes bananas. People are like, oh, thank you so much for sharing.

SPEAKER_03 48:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

I'm like, well, you could share it too. If you fell on your face, you should tell people. Yeah. If you have a win, you should tell people. Like let people in on the street.

Mark 48:32

Like my persona and then like my LinkedIn profile. It's just like perfectly. It's like a middle linebacker, for example. It's like, yeah, I made a tackle, and then their LinkedIn description is like, I led a strategic defensive initiative to counteract our competitors.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

So stupid. That's so dumb. Approaching strategy. It's so silly.

Trevor 48:53

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Like I had a guy from, I'm not going to say where he's from because he works at a big company and he's trying to come over to ours, but he slid into my LinkedIn DMs and he said, I'm a slut for cinnamon. I'm like, you're hired. Yeah. I mean, it's like slightly irreverent, but I'm like, I want someone that like obviously we're not slutty. Sure. But I want someone that understands that like we are we're towing the line a little bit. Like we have buns. We're talking about buns and big buns and on our back. It's like big buns are back. Like, yeah, we're not trying to be boring.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Like we're trying to be anti-boring. Yeah. And you know, so he's he's like, I want to be on your graphics team.

SPEAKER_03 49:35

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

I'm a slut for sentiment.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

You in? And I'm like, That's awesome. Yeah, I'm in.

Trevor 49:39

Like that's way cool.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

That's cool. Like, just be you and don't pretend, you know, he's so I just like it. I like people that are not pretending to be super polished, you know.

Trevor 49:52

What's what's one thing, like, you know, this journey is actually like, I know you say it's it's taken you a long time, but it's actually crazy how no, it's been pretty fast.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Yeah.

Where To Buy And Closing CTA

Trevor 50:00

Like when we've talked to other people like this journey is a lot, like you guys have moved at a very rapid pace, which is awesome. Uh like take yourself back to Hell Center Theater idea, like if you could give yourself one like you know, you know, word of advice for moving forward, what is it?

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Um, I think you know, we did a we got some investors and it's big and a great amount of money, but up until that point, it was very stressful. Like when you're talking about scaling in the CPG business and you couple that with food or yeah, food and frozen, like you're talking about millions of dollars. And we just weren't in the capacity, you know. Like we tried to get an SBA. I mean, we have our store, we have great revenue, but it wasn't enough to like get us what we needed.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

And we were so stressed. Like we're making these commitments, you know, because you can't get the investor until you get the sale. Yes. You can't get the sale until you're ready. Yeah. You're not ready until you have the investor. This is so much chicken and egg.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Um, when you're growing something that you have to you have to believe so with so much faith that everything is going to be okay. Because if you don't, you will fold.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Before, you know, just like right as you're at the precipice of uncovering the gold, like you're gonna fold.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

And it was really challenging for us to get that mindset. And if I could go back in time, and this is what I always tell founders that are just getting started, like everything will always be okay. Like, you will always find a solution. You just keep going, put one foot in front of the other, make another phone call, do not give up and do not fold. Yeah, like make a worst situation, you know?

Mark 51:55

Like, what's the worst they can do?

SPEAKER_01 51:56

What's the like you go bankrupt? Is that the worst that could happen? Are you getting eaten by like a tiger? No, like you're gonna be okay. Yeah, your family's gonna be okay, everything's gonna be okay. So I think just um our founders, our co-founders get like a little bit more nervous than my husband and I do. I think we are naturally like more, I'm cool with risk. Yeah, like I almost maybe thrive on it a little bit.

Mark 52:23

Um, you were already were an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

Yeah, we built a business and you know, my husband built that business. Yeah, he had 20 years of marketing. Like he's cool in digital, like worked at lots of unicorns, you know, Plural Sight, Nadobe, and Vivant, and um, you know, 1-800 credit. Like he was on such a trajectory to like we live the corporate life, and we gave all that up and did the interior design business. And so I think maybe we had that, like we'd already stretched to that capacity. Yeah. And I, you know, we had met with a number of second-time entrepreneur run is always easier. Yeah, I think it's easier. Well, and do you guys know Jeff Durham? He he owns Gimme Beauty, he's like on our board, he's my number one support. He has always been someone that I look up to, but also believed in me. So if you can latch on to someone who has done what you want to do and believes in you, and you have even just that one person that's like, you can do this in your darkest hour and you can call them. Um, I think that makes the world difference. So it would be always know that everything will be okay, and you find yourself a mentor that can talk you off the ledge. Yeah. You know, those two things. And like, don't listen to other people. Like I listen to so many podcasts where they're in CPG, but not in frozen food. Their advice that they make as like follow this advice is not something that like I can use in frozen food. And the same applies, like, my margins are not the same as makeup. So if you are in makeup and you're saying do it this way, yeah, it's you can't. So find a trusted advisor who has done exactly what you've done in the space that you've done it in, and only listen to them. And that goes back to like the interior design.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

If you're hiring a designer, don't go ask Joe who's painting the walls what he thinks stick to your one person, totally silence everybody else and take it to the moon.

Trevor 54:25

A lot of uh information out there.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

So much.

Trevor 54:29

There's experts in everything.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

And I love like entrepreneurial spirit. Like I was listening to Mark Cuban, and he was telling someone on you guys listen to how I built this. Guy Raz has like a super cool podcast, and I love Mark Cuban, but he was telling this peanut butter girl like not to go national retail, like it's gonna kill your business. He doesn't know that it's gonna kill her peanut butter business. Yeah, she is national retail, she's killing it. Yeah, but she like did not listen to that.

SPEAKER_03 54:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

If you listen to Mark Cuban, which you would think normal entrepreneurs would be like, do that. I have to listen to what he says. You don't like you can you can have a trusted advisor, yeah, but you know, so I love it.

Mark 55:12

That's really good advice, actually. I think so too. Because I think everyone just wants a silver bullet. Totally. And so you'll use your own confirmation bias to like try to listen to everyone and find that like one thing that's gonna be the big difference maker for you. But ultimately, business is playing poker, right? Like you you just have to stay at the table.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Absolutely.

Mark 55:37

And like you can't trust someone else who's holding their own hand. Like you can't you can trust them. I mean, like I get it. Like you have advisors, of course, but like at the end of the day, like you hold the cards and you have to make what you hold work. Totally. And that's not exactly gonna be the same thing that works for someone else who's holding a different set of cards, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:56

No, yeah, like my board would probably be like, don't wear those bunkinis to Expo Us. Sure. Yeah. But we did, and it was crazy successful. So, like you kind of have to like listen to your gut and you just even my founders, like I'll do things or say things, and they're like, A, that's so much work, like not interested.

unknown 56:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

And B, like, really, you know, so if you feel like you were running a company and and you believe in something and you have an idea about something, you should do it. Yeah.

Mark 56:32

Well, we work just for as an example for someone, like for people listening. We work with a a client of ours. Um, you know, I'm not gonna share who they are, but they are well on their way to be a$200 million company a year. And they s they've scaled really fast. But at one point we had a discussion with them and we're like because they had multiple agencies and they were also looking for like a CMO. But like they're already a marketing company. Yeah, they already do everything that they need to do internally because they're so in tune with who their audience is and how they're building their business. And the advice we gave was like, dude, A, I don't think like just use one agency. Right. Even if it's not us.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

Yeah.

Mark 57:17

Just use one because you don't want so many cooks in the kitchen. You don't want that many opinions. Right. And B, you don't need a CMO because everything that's special about you guys is coming directly from you. Like, you don't need to have another voice in here telling you that, like, hey, you need to clean up your branding, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. Like, that's not what's working for you guys. It's clearly not working. Right. So just trust your gut. Very irreverent. Yeah. Yeah, like keep doing what you do.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

Because the second you bring that suit in, yeah, don't bring the suit gone.

Mark 57:48

And sure enough, they've still, you know, they doubled, they doubled last year. Like they're literally just doubling, doubling, doubling. And so what I want to say is just you have to it collaboration is good, but you have to also, again, that that question about asking or saying no, right? Is you have to also be a dictator in your business. You do. Because it's better to have one vision, because if you do fail at that, at least you know what the data point is and there's accountability, and then you can counteract it. That's such a good point. But if there's multiple decision makers, you're gonna live in ambiguity. And never know what worked or what you're doing. Well, we kind of did this, we kind of did that, like, oh, let's change it. It's way better just to go all in on plans, even if they fail. Totally. Than it is to go like, uh, we'll try a few things. We kind of failed at all of them, but like we we're not really making any real change in the company as a result of all those failures because there's really no they weren't following any real vision. So it's just kind of like, oh, like I guess we'll just keep trying things.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Well, and even if you do fail, like you can pivot at any moment. Well, that was amazing. And that's the beauty of it.

Mark 58:58

At least there's a data point of failure and not just ambiguity.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

And if you bring in like stuffy suits and corporate people that maybe don't have a great understanding of that, the time that they will take to like instead of pivoting and trying something new all in when that thing failed, they would say, like, oh, let's do tests and let's, you know, do this and let's do like uh no one has time for that when you're doing a startup.

Mark 59:24

Like, you just people have a place at a certain level.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

100%.

Mark 59:27

You know, so we're not gonna if you're one of those people.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

No, I I love and respect those people. I'm sure at one point we will have those people in our brand.

Mark 59:37

There's a certain point where we're like, man, these zero we always say the biggest mistake zero to ten million dollar companies make, or even up to like twenty, thirty million is they get too corporate too fast.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Yeah, you lose that thing that makes you so special.

Trevor 59:50

Well, yeah. Well, that's what's awesome right now about you is like when once you start getting corporate, you stop having, I don't know what I'm putting over there. Yeah. There's shirts over there. Yeah, yeah. You stop making bikini t-shirts. Yeah. Right. You stop doing the things that like that probably didn't cost you a lot of money from a design perspective. And yes, you paid for the shirts and the design, but like that's such a almost gorilla-y style. Totally. Like you get rid of the gorilla fun of marketing, and you start to be like, okay, cool. Well, let's design the booth to be like XYZ, and you you stop adding the creative creative pieces that got you to that point. Like we see it happen all the time, especially with the like the Utah brands that like scale each other. They and then all of a sudden they all start looking at whatever like they're not following anybody at first. And then they start looking at what everyone else is doing, and they're like, oh shoot.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

I gotta go to Sil I gotta go to San Francisco and pull him in.

Trevor 1:00:45

Yeah, she stopped Twitter. So I'm gonna stop doing this, and you know. So the creativity and the difference is is the key.

Mark 1:00:52

So the reality is no one even knows. Like we say this all the time. Like if you're under a hundred million, even a hundred million dollars. Totally nobody's nobody. Nobody cares who you are.

Trevor 1:01:06

How dare they?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

No, no, no, no. And our our booth is like made of wood. Yeah. Our it's like I'm a designer, so it's made of like molding and wood, and it's not plastic or modular. It is a beat to set up. It's so hard and so I think it weighs like 3,000 pounds. I'm not exactly.

Mark 1:01:24

But it stands out.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

It is killer because people are like, oh my gosh, that's like real. It's not modular and plastic and doesn't look like IKEA, you know. And the boys hate it because it's so much work for them. But it's like all these things. A person that's gonna come in, they're gonna be like, let's get rid of that booth. It's too heavy to ship, yeah, takes up too much time, cost too much money, too hard to install, you know. And I'm like, no, we're not losing. No. Yeah, we're gonna make another booth next year. It's gonna be full wood, it's gonna be so awesome.

Trevor 1:01:57

Twice as big.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:57

It's gonna be yeah, it's gonna be so sucky. But like that's part of the thing that people notice.

Mark 1:02:06

Do you have any sons?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

I have one boy, four girls. Poor Ty.

Mark 1:02:10

I was gonna say any free labor. Yeah, oh him. I mean the girls can help. I mean, the girls help, the girls help.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

And my husband's wicked strong. Yeah. And like Brian is crazy strong too. But it's like me and then all these women, and then our husbands, and Ty is as helpful as he can be. He's 18, but he doesn't have the muscles that Matt has, but we did the same thing with our booths.

Trevor 1:02:32

Like we've, you know, we made them all wood too, and it is the biggest pain in the butt. Oh, but it stands out more than anything because everyone else has the vinyl, the metal poles, the zips, metal poles. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:45

I know I made a tinsel backdrop at my house. It took like 60 hours. It was wild. And everyone's like, tinsel, like the fire guys had to come and spray it. It cost a thousand dollars. They're like, what is this? I'm like, it's freaking cool. It has a neon sign. And you know, everyone, it was so viral. Like everyone was taking pictures at the tinsel booth, you know. Like, so there's just layers of charm that I don't think come from, they can't come from anyone.

Trevor 1:03:13

Yeah, you can't really, you can't really measure the brand equity piece that that happens until you start to see the results. Well, this is awesome. This has been such a good conversation. Thank you so much for jumping on and thanks for having me. Thanks for answering my DM. I DM you did not say no to us.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:28

I said yes. And look at this. I am still being a few. I told you I'm a fan. I love this podcast. You guys have a great thing going. Thank you. I'm a big fan.

Trevor 1:03:37

We're blushing over here. Oh, good. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. Um, where can people find Sunshine Buns?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

So in Utah, you can find them in any grocery store. We're launching nationwide Winco in six days.

Trevor 1:03:50

Wow. It's very stressful. I heard you can only spend cash or debit at Winco.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

I think that's true. But do you know that Winco sell they're second to Costco in volume? I did know that. They do like six million a week per location. Yeah, it's crazy. Winco.

Mark 1:04:05

I've right? I don't know what this says about. I've never been to Winco.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:09

You need to go because it is an experience.

Mark 1:04:12

Like I've never like entered a Winco.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

No, it's like a Costco of budget, but it's not like ghetto.

Mark 1:04:18

Are they in Utah?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:19

Yeah, they have one. There's a lot.

Trevor 1:04:22

There's one in America.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

Eighth North.

Trevor 1:04:24

Yes. But I think there's like there's 145. And there's one in Murray by Top Golf, right? There's a lot of.

Mark 1:04:31

The problem with me is I've grown up next to a Harman's.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

I know.

Mark 1:04:35

We're Harman's. And it is and it is the closest.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

And it's such an experience. Winco, you have to go though, because it is like they have bolt candy like in the bins. Yeah, you could buy like you could buy like 50 cans of beans for and their produce is I will I love I love Harman's.

Trevor 1:04:53

But their produce is the same. I just go there because it's the closest.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

But Winco's produce is and it's you will spend pennies in comparison. Like it is a great like our buns are on sale there. I should they're on sale on promo, like launching. I think for you can get the four pack for$588, which is wild. Like that's a good, that's a good deal. Yeah. But they get you on promo because they have you on volume.

Trevor 1:05:18

They'll give you a hug too.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Who was that?

Trevor 1:05:19

I said tell them bestie sent you. Oh yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

For sure. So anyway, you can we're Winco and then Costco, LA, and Hawaii in 12 weeks. And then we're in Texas and West, but we're gonna be doing a national rollout. Like I said, I can't say with who, but by the end of the year, and then um direct to consumer will be soon. Question mark soon. And then I think we're on QVC like first week in April.

Trevor 1:05:52

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:52

That's like next month.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:55

Two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

So two and a half weeks. Uh we have some work to do, but you can find us online. Instagram, TikTok, all the places. Cool. Awesome.

Trevor 1:06:03

Well, thank you so much, Chrissy. It was good to have you on and go visit Sunshine Buns and test out.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

And you can come to the store too if you're in a room.

Trevor 1:06:11

I'm going to take my kids. Oh, it's so cute. They'll be way into it, actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

Yeah, it's fun.

Trevor 1:06:15

We're always looking for a good experience. Okay. All right, everybody. We'll see you guys next week. Thank you for listening to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. If there's a brand, campaign, strategy, or marketing tactic that you want us to review, please DM me at the Trevor Crump on Instagram or TikTok or at the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. And of course, if you got value from this episode or if you like it whatsoever, please make sure you're subscribing, you're liking, you're following, and for sure go leave us a review to let us know that we're doing a good job. We will see you guys next time.